(September 9, 2015 at 6:45 pm)Stimbo Wrote: But they are associated; that was the point, I think.

Yeah, I know that was their point, and that they never actually intended on having it up. 

I'm just saying I wouldn't care if they did want to put their statue somewhere, so long as it wasn't done in such a way that would directly insinuate hate towards a particular group of people. I mean, obviously I don't like it, but if I don't like it I can just not look at it.

(September 9, 2015 at 6:49 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(September 9, 2015 at 6:43 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not really bothered with any religious symbol being prominently displayed on public property. You're right, if one is allowed, they should all be allowed. I personally couldn't care less, so long as they didn't effect the laws or freedom of religion.

Two things:
1) You realize you have spent this entire thread saying the exact opposite, right?

2) What do you think a possible effect of having the 10 Commandments on a courthouse/capital lawn is if not reinforcing the supremely flawed idea that people should be judged or laws enacted that stem from that list of "God's Laws" they see when they drive to work every day?

1. You must have misunderstood. If we're talking about simply having a Satan statue somewhere, I don't care. My high school mascot was the blue devils. I didn't exactly throw a fit lol.

2. I don't see how/why it would effect anything, quite honestly. The people who are Christian working at the courthouse are going to continue being Christian, and those who aren't, won't. I don't think deep seeded American principles of separation of Church and state would go away because of the 10 commandments monument.

EDIT TO ADD: Remember, I said "I don't care as long as it doesn't effect the laws." So hypothetically speaking, if it did effect the laws, I would see a problem. Otherwise it just seems petty to me.

I think Catholic Lady is one of the fairer theists I've seen in a long time.

Atheists, not believing in any doctrine, don't really have a symbol to represent their 'lack of faith'. However there are laws that make Atheists feel like they don't belong. Seven states bar Atheists from holding public office for example. George H.W. Bush allegedly said that Atheists aren't Americans. 48% of people surveyed said they wouldn't want their child to marry an atheist, and 50% said they wouldn't vote for one. People said they would less likely donate a kidney to an Atheist or even Agnostic than they would other groups such as Muslims and Christians.

When I was a Catholic, I was offended by the signs that said "Tis the Season for Reason. You know it's a myth." I felt they were attacking my religion, as I'm sure some feel their religion is being attacked by the statue. However, that's not what is happening. It's about inclusion, and acceptance. The symbol, I think, was mainly chosen to draw objection in hopes that Christians would understand their objections to their ten commandments monuments and similar monuments. Now as an Atheist I understand those signs aren't about telling people "You're a fool for believing," It's telling people "You aren't alone." Which is a good and important message to send.

The way religious people and irreligious people think seems to be fundamentally different. These "Satanists" are using symbols that will draw attention, and open discussion. They could have chosen a less 'offensive' symbol to Christians, but it would also be one people probably didn't talk about.

(September 9, 2015 at 7:27 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Seven states bar Atheists from holding public office for example.

Which is illegal, as far as I'm informed.

(September 9, 2015 at 6:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(September 9, 2015 at 6:49 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: Two things:
1) You realize you have spent this entire thread saying the exact opposite, right?

2) What do you think a possible effect of having the 10 Commandments on a courthouse/capital lawn is if not reinforcing the supremely flawed idea that people should be judged or laws enacted that stem from that list of "God's Laws" they see when they drive to work every day?

1. You must have misunderstood. If we're talking about simply having a Satan statue somewhere, I don't care. My high school mascot was the blue devils. I didn't exactly throw a fit lol.

2. I don't see how/why it would effect anything, quite honestly. The people who are Christian working at the courthouse are going to continue being Christian, and those who aren't, won't. I don't think deep seeded American principles of separation of Church and state would go away because of the 10 commandments monument.

EDIT TO ADD: Remember, I said "I don't care as long as it doesn't effect the laws." So hypothetically speaking, if it did effect the laws, I would see a problem. Otherwise it just seems petty to me.

It seems petty to you because you get all the perks.  How would you feel if your money said "In Satan We Trust" on it?  Would it bother you that you have to use it anyway, even though it goes against your personal beliefs?  Do you think it is right for public property to be used to put up offensive religious symbols on them?  If not, then you should be against the 10 commandments being put up in public space.  It is offensive and vile.

The proper way of dealing with all of this is to actually follow the Constitution and take down all religious monuments on public ground, and take religion off of our money and other government-produced things.

The reality is that you like having a privileged position for your religion in government, so you get upset when things go against it.  You are fine with pro-Christian propaganda promoted by the government, but you have a problem with things that go against your religion.

But if we are going to have these things, frankly, it should be made a fountain, with the satan character peeing on the 10 commandments.  That would make it a much better monument, and would enable the 10 commandments to coexist with it.

(September 9, 2015 at 7:27 pm)Cecelia Wrote: I think Catholic Lady is one of the fairer theists I've seen in a long time.

Atheists, not believing in any doctrine, don't really have a symbol to represent their 'lack of faith'.  However there are laws that make Atheists feel like they don't belong.  Seven states bar Atheists from holding public office for example.  George H.W. Bush allegedly said that Atheists aren't Americans.  48% of people surveyed said they wouldn't want their child to marry an atheist, and 50% said they wouldn't vote for one.  People said they would less likely donate a kidney to an Atheist or even Agnostic than they would other groups such as Muslims and Christians.

When I was a Catholic, I was offended by the signs that said "Tis the Season for Reason.  You know it's a myth."  I felt they were attacking my religion, as I'm sure some feel their religion is being attacked by the statue.  However, that's not what is happening.  It's about inclusion, and acceptance.  The symbol, I think, was mainly chosen to draw objection in hopes that Christians would understand their objections to their ten commandments monuments and similar monuments.  Now as an Atheist I understand those signs aren't about telling people "You're a fool for believing,"  It's telling people "You aren't alone."  Which is a good and important message to send.

The way religious people and irreligious people think seems to be fundamentally different.  These "Satanists" are using symbols that will draw attention, and open discussion.  They could have chosen a less 'offensive' symbol to Christians, but it would also be one people probably didn't talk about.

This sounds reasonable.

By the way, that's how they imagined the monument.




Quite obviously a parody of christian displays.

(September 9, 2015 at 7:30 pm)abaris Wrote:

(September 9, 2015 at 7:27 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Seven states bar Atheists from holding public office for example.

Which is illegal, as far as I'm informed.

It's unconstitutional yes, Article Six Paragraph Three of the US Constitution.  They've never been challenged, and they're usually not upheld though I'm sure they'd be overturned if they were challenged.   Those state constitutions do still have them though.

(September 9, 2015 at 6:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: 1. You must have misunderstood. If we're talking about simply having a Satan statue somewhere, I don't care. My high school mascot was the blue devils. I didn't exactly throw a fit lol.

I get that. My point was that because of the placement of the 10 Commandments in both of the major cases, the only placement where both monuments will receive equal prominence is when they're near each other. Not right on top of each other, but near each other where it's clear that one is not more prominently displayed.

(September 9, 2015 at 6:59 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: 2. I don't see how/why it would effect anything, quite honestly. The people who are Christian working at the courthouse are going to continue being Christian, and those who aren't, won't. I don't think deep seeded American principles of separation of Church and state would go away because of the 10 commandments monument.

EDIT TO ADD: Remember, I said "I don't care as long as it doesn't effect the laws." So hypothetically speaking, if it did effect the laws, I would see a problem. Otherwise it just seems petty to me.

CL, come on. You are smarter than that. Ted Cruz, Roy Moore, Asa Hutchinson, Mike Huckabee, and a litany of other legislators and governors have shown time and time again that they are willing to impose Christian law on people rather than Constitutional law. They will all tell you that they believe the US was founded on Christianity. These asshats drive by the 10 Commandments every day, and you don't think that reaffirms their idiotic sense of privilege?

(September 9, 2015 at 6:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, I do think it would be hateful to put a Satan statue next to a Christian monument. I understand that to the Satanists, it means something other than evil and hate, but it still came from the bible as those things.

I wonder how the pagans felt when the Christians co-opted their good horned gods into demons and devils to put in their bible and literature.