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Longhorn · September 14, 2015 at 4:04 pm

(September 14, 2015 at 3:13 pm)alpha male Wrote:
(September 14, 2015 at 1:59 pm)Losty Wrote: If all lives were "given" the same value by some outside source, then it stands to reason that that source would give all lives the same amount of potential for survival....
All lives do have the same amount of potential for survival. From a worldly perspective, that potential is zero. Everything dies.

Well there's a disingenuous equivocation -_-

Losty · September 14, 2015 at 4:13 pm

(September 14, 2015 at 4:04 pm)Neimenovic Wrote:
(September 14, 2015 at 3:13 pm)alpha male Wrote: All lives do have the same amount of potential for survival. From a worldly perspective, that potential is zero. Everything dies.

Well there's a disingenuous equivocation -_-

That's really the best you can expect from alpha male.

~~John V~~ · September 14, 2015 at 4:16 pm

(September 14, 2015 at 4:04 pm)Neimenovic Wrote:
(September 14, 2015 at 3:13 pm)alpha male Wrote: All lives do have the same amount of potential for survival. From a worldly perspective, that potential is zero. Everything dies.

Well there's a disingenuous equivocation -_-

Nope. The point is that atheists all too frequently compare apples to oranges by arguing against biblical principles, but doing so from an atheist perspective. You fail to think it through and note that, from a Biblical perspective - i.e. with an afterlife - we all have the same rate of survival - 100%.

Longhorn · (This post was last modified: September 14, 2015 at 4:26 pm by Longhorn.)

(September 14, 2015 at 4:16 pm)alpha male Wrote:
(September 14, 2015 at 4:04 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: Well there's a disingenuous equivocation -_-

Nope. The point is that atheists all too frequently compare apples to oranges by arguing against biblical principles, but doing so from an atheist perspective. You fail to think it through and note that, from a Biblical perspective - i.e. with an afterlife - we all have the same rate of survival - 100%.

....which only brings us back to Rob's point. Why would an abortion matter then? I mean, to you, it's no different if you die as a 40yo, 80yo or two cells, and you get to an afterlife anyway.

You were saying all lives have a 0% chance of survival, which is blatantly conflating living forever and what was meant in this case specifically - surviving birth. It's obvious those are not equal and not 0, and if the source of the value of life makes it so unequal here and equal (with a 100% success rate no less) for the afterlife, doesn't it follow that this life is pretty much worthless, thus proving Robs point?

**Salacious B. Crumb** · September 14, 2015 at 4:56 pm

(September 14, 2015 at 2:12 pm)Losty Wrote:
(September 14, 2015 at 2:05 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: He did, but that's a theological discussion.

I have 3 children from 4 pregnancies. If I got pregnant again my fetus would have a significantly less amount of potential for survival than my first two pregnancies, and somewhat less than my fourth pregnancy. That's just considering the biological implications because I know you will spout on about free will if I start talking about how the potential was effected by my exhusband.

If god believes all lives to be equal then it makes no sense for him to allow pregnancy in a woman whose body cannot support a pregnancy. If he allows such a pregnancy then it seems that he doesn't value the life of the woman or the fetus as much as he does other lives. I mean...god is supposed to know you and love you before he creates you in your mothers womb, but if he really loved you'd he'd have found a safer womb to stick you in right?

If only this logic could be processed in some people's minds. Well put. But, NOOO it's god's will when he kills a fetus. He still wuvs whoever and whoevers wittle fetus he killed. The extremely small amount of time spent in the womb must be part of some master plan. That's the beauty of it, everything is part of the master plan, no matter what it is.. no matter how good, how evil, how despicable it's all out of love from invisible man made out of pure love that lives in the sky. How comforting..

Quote: We may never have satisfactory answers as to why [insert horrible things that happen to people]...but god allows nature to take it's course he really does value your life. You just have to have faith.

....and that's when the debate ends because we are no longer having a rational conversation.

I’ll have to start using that last line. The ‘conversations’ will be no more than a post or two if I feel like having a direct conversation about morality or religion with a theist. Or any time I hear, "God told me this", "It's in the bible", "Just because it's true" (without anything to back it up), "I can feel it's true", "Life is sacred", "We're created in god's image", any argument from ignorance of our existence in general, or "Because I believe that aborting a fetus is wrong even if the mother's life still can be saved, I'd rather see both of them die" type of arguments. MINDBOGGLING how these types of arguments can be used in conversations that are meant to be rational.

Losty · September 14, 2015 at 5:48 pm

(September 14, 2015 at 4:16 pm)alpha male Wrote:
(September 14, 2015 at 4:04 pm)Neimenovic Wrote: Well there's a disingenuous equivocation -_-

Nope. The point is that atheists all too frequently compare apples to oranges by arguing against biblical principles, but doing so from an atheist perspective. You fail to think it through and note that, from a Biblical perspective - i.e. with an afterlife - we all have the same rate of survival - 100%.

Ok, so if the rate of survival is 100%, then why is it ok for god to drop a fetus into unsafe womb where it will die and likely kill the mother but it's not ok for the mother to take it out. 100% survival remember

**robvalue** · (This post was last modified: September 15, 2015 at 2:58 am by robvalue.)

Won2:

Losty:

**robvalue** · (This post was last modified: September 15, 2015 at 3:01 am by robvalue.)

Let me rearrange this question:

For those of you who think dead babies go to heaven, is it in the baby's best interest to kill it before it has the chance to possibly go somewhere other than heaven? Forget for the moment whether or not anyone should actually kill the baby. Just answer from the baby's point of view. If you were the baby, what would you choose? Instant heaven, or this life and only a possibility of heaven?

For those of you who think the dead baby doesn't go to heaven, or has a lesser experience as a result of dying young, I'd be interested to hear what you believe instead.

Javaman · September 15, 2015 at 3:54 am

(September 15, 2015 at 2:54 am)robvalue Wrote: Let me rearrange this question:

For those of you who think dead babies go to heaven, is it in the baby's best interest to kill it before it has the chance to possibly go somewhere other than heaven? Forget for the moment whether or not anyone should actually kill the baby. Just answer from the baby's point of view. If you were the baby, what would you choose? Instant heaven, or this life and only a possibility of heaven?

For those of you who think the dead baby doesn't go to heaven, or has a lesser experience as a result of dying young, I'd be interested to hear what you believe instead.

Apparently, God is good when he arranges matters so that tens of billions of unborn children will go directly to heaven.

But it's really, really bad when us mere humans cause exactly the same thing to happen at a fraction of the scale.

I'm still trying to puzzle out why abortions performed by Yahweh are A-OK, but abortions performed by humans are completely unacceptable.

**robvalue** · (This post was last modified: September 15, 2015 at 4:11 am by robvalue.)

Good point.

I'd really like to hear anyone honestly say that they would choose to risk their ticket into heaven if they were a baby with this choice, for the sake of this far inferior, finite life. I find it hard to believe anyone in their right mind would make such a statement. But we'll see! Forget about killing, the door is right in front of you. What does baby do? If I was a baby who understood it all, and those two choices were available, I'd go through the heaven door.

I hope no one uses this kind of betting strategy in a casino. "I'll wager my infinite chips. If it lands on red, I get fifty more chips. If it lands on black, I lose all my chips, and possibly owe you infinite chips too." This is being charitable enough to say their religious choice is actually 50% likely to please God. In reality, it's an infinitely small area of the wheel they are aiming for. Everything else will cost them infinite chips.

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