(September 16, 2015 at 2:20 am)robvalue Wrote: I realized something. Even if babies get a lesser experience in heaven, there's still a lot of be said for killing them. They are guaranteed to go to heaven (according to most people) which has to be pretty good, even in the "lite" version. However, as soon as you don't kill them and they start thinking about stuff, they may choose the wrong religion. Even if we pretend there is only Christianity and Islam, that gives them a 50% chance of no heaven at all. Include every other possible religion and were down to 0%. But let's be charitable and say 10%. Heaven lite 100% seems like a safe bet against 10% better heaven 90% no heaven with optional torture.

Uh, no, two choices doesn't necessarily indicate a 50% chance of each.

You guys frequently complain about indoctrination of children. Now you pretend as if parents' belief have no effect on their children. Proverbs says that if you train up a child in the way he should go, he won't depart from it when he's older. Proverbs are generalities and not guarantees, but this agrees with the frequent observation of atheists. So, there's a high probability of the children of the saved ending up saved themselves.

(September 15, 2015 at 2:05 pm)alpha male Wrote: No, you're not. You tried to pull a tu quoque by saying "we bully animals so it's ok for God to bully us". I don't know how you'd feel about god if he started reaching down and eating members of your family though.

When you found out that tu quoque didn't work on me, you tried to chase me round the houses to try and find some other way to make me look like a hypocrite, in order to complete your originally flawed to quoque.

Yes, you look like a hypocrite.

Quote:Prison system? What's next?

Address the point on the prison system and we'll see.

Quote:We're totally off topic even for the off topic point. I could answer about prison, but then it would be some other random thing. It seems very important to show its OK for God to do what he wants to us.

You're projecting. I don't go about starting threads saying it's OK for god to do what he wants. It's you guys who see it as very important to charge that god is immoral. And you supposedly don't even believe in him. Strange.

Quote:I admit there is some validity to your argument when it's presented to someone who thinks what we do to animals is OK.

As noted before, it also has validity with those who think that killing animals is murder. That means that most people who have ever lived are murderers who should be punished if there's a just god.

Quote:I hadn't considered that connection before, so points for that! I use the argument about a more intelligent and powerful species than us coming down and enslaving us for meat. Would we say "fair enough"? Doubtful.

So we're a bunch of hypocrites who accuse them in a self-serving manner.

Further, note the beauty of Jesus saying that we'll be judged as we judge others.

Quote:Arguments about self awareness are a rationalization, that is a totally arbitrary distinction when deciding who gets to do what to what.

Agreed. The simple fact of the matter is that we enslave and kill animals simply because we can, but we condemn enslavement and murder of humans merely because we wouldn't want it to happen to us.

Quote:Trying to compare raising animals for meat to abortion decisions is ludicrous. So I'll not be continuing the discussion.

I've heard that before.

(September 15, 2015 at 12:17 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: First off, it is not your decision to make. Parents are stewards of their children; they are not their owners. Each person owns their own life. Secondly, you are not considering the role of God in your hypothetical game. God’s options would be:

1. The parent and child both lead righteous lives: Heaven +2, Hell 0
2. The parent unrighteously kills the child: Heaven +1, Hell +1
3. The parent lives righteously, but the child does not:  Heaven +1, Hell: +1
4. The parent is otherwise unrighteous and the child becomes wicked: Heaven 0, Hell 2

To my mind, that’s pretty much a wash without taking into consideration of various doctrines concerning eternal security, election, etc.

Are you honestly under the assumption that your god would give that much of a damn? You know, given the explicit "Go ahead" for abortions and the constant child killing on his part? Fuck's sake man. 

---

(September 15, 2015 at 2:44 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(September 15, 2015 at 2:18 pm)Losty Wrote: Oh crap, I forgot. It's only ok for god to kill people right...

Right. Rolling your eyes isn't an argument. It's not unreasonable to propose that the omniscient creator of the universe has greater rights than his creation. It's rather unreasonable - and self-serving - to argue otherwise.

The fact that you're OK with that is so off putting that I need a drink now. So, cheers I suppose. 

You're telling me you're actually good with the whole 'might makes right' deal?

His name is alpha male....do you really need to ask?

No theist has as yet addressed the point about people picking the wrong religion. Unless you believe God sticks you in heaven even for worshipping some other false god, then you have to admit your baby is about to play Russian roulette with his soul. To simply announce your own religion must be correct is astonishingly arrogant, and obviously no argument given all religions say it. And even if it is, he may go to another religion.

Do you vaccinate your kid? If so, you're making a decision without their consent to "miss out" an unnecessary and unpleasant experience. No one says this is robbing the child of the experience of being ill. If you truly believe this life is just the beginning, then it's the same. You're vaccinating them against this lesser bit of life and avoiding all chance of not going to heaven.

I've had several people admit to reasonable doubt, which I respect. I honestly believe that anyone who doesn't kill their kid possesses enough reasonable doubt. If it was as simple and obvious as the vaccine scenario, I don't think people would hesitate. It has happened before.

So kudos to anyone who admits there is reasonable doubt. That defeats my whole scenario cleanly, and saves having to do mental gymnastics to show why your actions don't match your beliefs.

(September 18, 2015 at 3:40 am)Losty Wrote: His name is alpha male....do you really need to ask?

"Might makes right" certainly supports abortions. What is the unborn baby going to do about it? I crush it with my superior strength and intellect. And I'll eat it. I'm superior to it.

Mmmmm, crushed babies.

(September 18, 2015 at 3:51 am)Starvald Demelain Wrote:

(September 18, 2015 at 3:40 am)Losty Wrote: His name is alpha male....do you really need to ask?

Rick avatar. I approve c:

(September 15, 2015 at 2:44 pm)alpha male Wrote: Right. Rolling your eyes isn't an argument. It's not unreasonable to propose that the omniscient creator of the universe has greater rights than his creation. It's rather unreasonable - and self-serving - to argue otherwise.

The fact that you're OK with that is so off putting that I need a drink now. So, cheers I suppose. 

You're telling me you're actually good with the whole 'might makes right' deal?
[/quote]

"Good with" is too ambiguous to address. For practical purposes, I've yet to see an alternative to might makes right. Do you have a suggestion?

Morality is a matter of opinion. If you're in a gang, it may be morally correct to you to kill a rival gang member in certain circumstances. Society at large says that such killing is morally incorrect. The difference is that society has instituted powers greater than that of the gang. Sure, the gang member can sit in jail and complain that he was justified in what he did. It's a matter of opinion. But it's not going to do him any good.

(September 18, 2015 at 3:49 am)robvalue Wrote: No theist has as yet addressed the point about people picking the wrong religion.

You must have missed my comment on:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-35972-po...pid1051404

Quote:You say that one must choose the right religion but most mainstream and many off-beat Christian denominations are not as exclusionary or the choice as binary as you say. Most churches make allowances for people ignorant of Christ, the perfectly contrite, righteous heathens, etc.

- Me