(November 12, 2010 at 5:06 pm)Cando Wrote: Birth defects are part of life.

Quote:But birth defects only affect a small proportion of the population.

I doubt that you would flippantly dispense these platitudes and statistics if YOU were born with a serious or disfiguring birth defect.

(November 14, 2010 at 11:50 pm)Lethe Wrote:

(November 14, 2010 at 11:27 pm)Godschild Wrote: @ Skipper why does evolution allow for birth defects in humans, what possible purpose do these awful birth defects serve in evolution? Is evolution on the hunt for the perfect human or might it be that evolution is nothing more than random acts with no real purpose at all? With humans and apes sharing 98% of there DNA why is it that these types of birth defects do not show up in the apes very often?

The video in post #48 explains this fairly well.

Quote:Since a lot of evolutionist and even some on this site believe that in the grand scheme of things, humans have no more value than any other animal, why don't we just kill the defective babies and rid our species of these terrible traits?

No more value in the eyes of some unseen creator, yes, many do, but obviously it is natural to attribute more value to members of your own species than non-members. And mothers don't kill their defective babies for numerous reasons. A maternal bond being one of the more powerful deterrents, which has obvious advantages evolutionarily speaking.

Godschild Wrote:What advantages could there be, in the rest of the animal kingdom defective young are eventually discarded for the survival of the social group. The weak and sick are killed out by preditors this helps to keep the gene pool strong. Maternal bonds evolutionary speaking seems to be a flaw in the human race that most other species will ignor for the benifit of the group or the parents themselves, caring for the defective infant would only bring danger and a corrupt gene pool to a species. So where are the obvious advantages to keeping defective babies that eventually become a burden on society, just the financial cost of these individuals amount to unbelievable costs that could go to help feed the starving childern that are not genetically inferior. As I see it evolution has made a terrible mistake in the human race and could endanger the survival of humans.

Quote:Why has evolution left us with such a weakness as to feel a survival connection to such deformed animals which places a burden on the society as a whole?

The advantages of compassion outweigh the disadvantages. Social cohesion has been vital to humans' success, and one of the ways in which this was achieved was through the development of such traits as empathy and the ability to form strong emotional ties.

Godschild Wrote:Why do you believe that the care for deformed babies has something to do with social cohesion? I agree social cohesion is vital to human survival, just as the wolf, lion, elephants, bees, ants, whales and ect. need social cohesion to survive. None of those groups will let a defective baby come between the group and it's survival. The groups that I have listed have as strong a social responsibility as the human race does, if not stronger. The mammals in that group have extremely strong emotional ties.

Quote:Why should I have to pay out taxes to help keep such defective people up when the rest of the animal kingdom rids themselves of this problem.

Except not all other animals do. Many animals, mammals in particular, care and provide for their young, old, feeble, and disabled. Elephants would be just one example.

Godschild Wrote:Mammals do not let the old and defective survive to be a burden to their social groups, even elephants will leave young behind if they become a hindrance to the group, they understand that the cost of survival for the one can not outweight the cost for the survival of the group. Until the advent of man, evolutionary speaking, and his misuse of the planet, those animals had no problem with their survival.

Quote:Why are my tax dollars wasted on studies of these defects because evolution left the human race without the sense to rid itself of defective babies? Just wanting to know how you and other nonbelievers felt about this?

Again, because the evolutionary benefits of acquiring compassion ultimately outweigh the disadvantages.

Godschild Wrote:How is it that the compassion for defective childern that are a finacial burden to society can out weigh the disadvantages to the human race?

(November 15, 2010 at 12:11 pm)Strongbad Wrote:

(November 12, 2010 at 5:06 pm)Cando Wrote: Birth defects are part of life.

Quote:But birth defects only affect a small proportion of the population.

I doubt that you would flippantly dispense these platitudes and statistics if YOU were born with a serious or disfiguring birth defect.

So you think that every single person on earth with a birth defect, even a serious birth defect, spends their life feeling sorry for themselves, unable to feel positive about it, let alone joke about it? You can doubt all you like, but there are many people who are like that. The righteous brigade such as yourself just love to perpetuate the victim mentality, encouraging such people to think of themselves as "poor me", so that you, Righteous, can come along and get all high and mighty and tell everyone else how caring you are. I was born with webbed feet and I don't need the likes of you claiming to give a shit about me or anybody else with the same or any other birth defect, condition, or illness. So you can shove your "caring" where the sun don't shine. I'm off for a game of football. Smell ya later.

(November 14, 2010 at 11:27 pm)Godschild Wrote: @ Skipper why does evolution allow for birth defects in humans, what possible purpose do these awful birth defects serve in evolution? Is evolution on the hunt for the perfect human or might it be that evolution is nothing more than random acts with no real purpose at all? With humans and apes sharing 98% of there DNA why is it that these types of birth defects do not show up in the apes very often? Did evolution leave us shorted on this or has the human race not been selective enough in its breeding? Since a lot of evolutionist and even some on this site believe that in the grand scheme of things, humans have no more value than any other animal, why don't we just kill the defective babies and rid our species of these terrible traits? Why has evolution left us with such a weakness as to feel a survival connection to such deformed animals which places a burden on the society as a whole? Why should I have to pay out taxes to help keep such defective people up when the rest of the animal kingdom rids themselves of this problem, why are my tax dollars wasted on studies of these defects because evolution left the human race without the sense to rid itself of defective babies? Just wanting to know how you and other nonbelievers felt about this?

You speak as if evolution has a plan. It dosen't. You speak as if it's a conscious guiding force with a goal. I never said it did. I said science can explain why things such as birth defects happen (obviously not all, but we're getting there) and once we understand we can start to combat them.

It's religion that with all it's claims of an all loving and powerful father that's got answers to provide.

(November 15, 2010 at 1:05 pm)Cando Wrote:

(November 15, 2010 at 12:11 pm)Strongbad Wrote:

(November 12, 2010 at 5:06 pm)Cando Wrote: Birth defects are part of life.

Quote:But birth defects only affect a small proportion of the population.

I doubt that you would flippantly dispense these platitudes and statistics if YOU were born with a serious or disfiguring birth defect.

So you think that every single person on earth with a birth defect, even a serious birth defect, spends their life feeling sorry for themselves, unable to feel positive about it, let alone joke about it? You can doubt all you like, but there are many people who are like that. The righteous brigade such as yourself just love to perpetuate the victim mentality, encouraging such people to think of themselves as "poor me", so that you, Righteous, can come along and get all high and mighty and tell everyone else how caring you are. I was born with webbed feet and I don't need the likes of you claiming to give a shit about me or anybody else with the same or any other birth defect, condition, or illness. So you can shove your "caring" where the sun don't shine. I'm off for a game of football. Smell ya later.

Dang! For a "theist", you sure seem awfully hostile! I wonder what your deity thinks of such unwarranted aggression. Before you go assigning thoughts to me, let me tell you what I really think, Aquaman. Firstly, I don't give a shit about YOU. Secondly, if I have compassion for someone born with a serious birth defect or disease, that doesn't make me "righteous" or "high and mighty" - it only means that I am capable of empathy.

I hope the sun is shining during your football game!

(November 15, 2010 at 12:14 pm)Godschild Wrote: What advantages could there be, in the rest of the animal kingdom defective young are eventually discarded for the survival of the social group. The weak and sick are killed out by predators this helps to keep the gene pool strong.

Yet it isn't very often "defective" infants' care impedes on the very survival of it's next of kin. If there are an abundance of resources, the number of surviving members in any group will increase.

Quote:Maternal bonds evolutionary speaking seems to be a flaw in the human race that most other species will ignore for the benefit of the group or the parents themselves.

A deep-seeded desire to care for one's own young until they mature in to adulthood is very often vital for a child's survival.

Quote:Caring for the defective infant would only bring danger and a corrupt gene pool to a species.

Yet evolution isn't a tyrannical dictator. When a species can thrive, it will thrive.

Quote:So where are the obvious advantages to keeping defective babies that eventually become a burden on society, just the financial cost of these individuals amount to unbelievable costs that could go to help feed the starving children that are not genetically inferior.

Stronger bonds are present amongst closely related (whether by blood or interaction) individuals than unrelated individuals.

Quote:As I see it evolution has made a terrible mistake in the human race and could endanger the survival of humans.

6,700,000,000 and counting, I'd say they've done fairly well, especially in comparison to the other Great Apes.

Quote:Why do you believe that the care for deformed babies has something to do with social cohesion?

The ability to form strong emotional ties is key for both. Evolution isn't about perfecting organisms, it's about adapting organisms' features to their environments.

Quote:I agree social cohesion is vital to human survival, just as the wolf, lion, elephants, bees, ants, whales and ect. need social cohesion to survive. None of those groups will let a defective baby come between the group and it's survival. The groups that I have listed have as strong a social responsibility as the human race does, if not stronger. The mammals in that group have extremely strong emotional ties.

But caring for the disabled doesn't affect our survival. And the negative effects of "wasting" resources on those with disabilities is of lesser importance from the view of an individual, as (again) the ties to kin are stronger than to strangers. This stems from a desire to preserve one's own genetic material, and this desire does not necessarily discriminate between the quality of said genetic material.

Quote:Mammals do not let the old and defective survive to be a burden to their social groups.

Many do when they have the resources to do so. If wolves had an overabundance of food would they and do they feed their sick and injured? Yes. And in today's society, humans are comparable. I'm more likely to take my dog to the veterinarian than a single mother on welfare with two children to feed because I have the resources to do so, and she does not.

Quote:Even elephants will leave young behind if they become a hindrance to the group, they understand that the cost of survival for the one can not outweigh the cost for the survival of the group.

But again, survival isn't threatened when one's own needs are already met.

Quote:Until the advent of man, evolutionary speaking, and his misuse of the planet, those animals had no problem with their survival.

Animals have different attributes fine-tuned for their interactions with their environment. Many lineages did indeed die out.

Quote:How is it that the compassion for defective children that are a financial burden to society can out weigh the disadvantages to the human race?

"Side effects" of successful traits are common (such as in the example given of the sickle cell), but the ability to exhibit compassion isn't solely applicable to the disabled. The basis for compassion is a connection to others, and this connection can serve to one's own benefit. Humans are interdependent of one another. A disregard for the life of another could result in weakening one's own support, and while a man in a wheel chair might not be able to defend you from a pack of hungry coyotes, he too has a number of valuable contributions to be made.

(November 13, 2010 at 3:36 am)theVOID Wrote: It' pretty much just bad communication to use the word God to represent that concept, use something else, the god term is confused enough already.

And I'm sure Einstein's god was some intention through mathematics, rather than just a blanket term for everything, it was somewhat more than "universe". Do you share the intention part of the idea with him?

I also feel, in my opinion, that "scientific pantheism" (God is the universe and God isn't sentient) is a category confusion, a distinction from atheism that I don't get. For the term "God" to have any meaning, we have to assume that such a being is at least sentient. Essentially, the atheist-deist debate is to whether the "machine" we call the universe is by decision or did it just happen.

(November 15, 2010 at 1:13 pm)Skipper Wrote:

(November 14, 2010 at 11:27 pm)Godschild Wrote: @ Skipper why does evolution allow for birth defects in humans, what possible purpose do these awful birth defects serve in evolution? Is evolution on the hunt for the perfect human or might it be that evolution is nothing more than random acts with no real purpose at all? With humans and apes sharing 98% of there DNA why is it that these types of birth defects do not show up in the apes very often? Did evolution leave us shorted on this or has the human race not been selective enough in its breeding? Since a lot of evolutionist and even some on this site believe that in the grand scheme of things, humans have no more value than any other animal, why don't we just kill the defective babies and rid our species of these terrible traits? Why has evolution left us with such a weakness as to feel a survival connection to such deformed animals which places a burden on the society as a whole? Why should I have to pay out taxes to help keep such defective people up when the rest of the animal kingdom rids themselves of this problem, why are my tax dollars wasted on studies of these defects because evolution left the human race without the sense to rid itself of defective babies? Just wanting to know how you and other nonbelievers felt about this?

You speak as if evolution has a plan. It dosen't. You speak as if it's a conscious guiding force with a goal. I never said it did. I said science can explain why things such as birth defects happen (obviously not all, but we're getting there) and once we understand we can start to combat them.

It's religion that with all it's claims of an all loving and powerful father that's got answers to provide.

Skipper if you will read again my statement I think you will see that I in no way believe that evolution is a conscious or guiding force. The underlined above is what I would believe about evolution if I believed in it at all(macro evolution). I did not mean to imply that you said anything about evolution. I was asking questions to see how you and other nonbelievers felt about the hand evolution deals the human race. I did throw in some things to show how I would feel if I believed in evolution in it's entirety.
I love kids and no one hates to see all the birth defects that harm them worse than I do. I do not believe that God causes birth defects, I believe God allows life to deal out to us what it may and that God will help us to deal with our individual situations in His love for us. Sure I know God could stop all these things from happening and some times I wish He would because I can see how much others suffer. What if He did then would you believe in Him or find another reason not to believe as many would do. God has a problem with humans we take to much for granted and forget where our good fortune comes from. Childern do not appreciate what their parents do for them, people do not appreciate that their employer gave them a job and the list can go on and on, but the bottom line is that most people who enjoy good fortune take it for granted, no matter where it comes from. Because man (Adam) brought sin into the world there is a price all mankind will pay, I know that most people do not understand why we must suffer because of what one man did but what most do not take into consideration is that we have inherited the result of the original sin and that is the knowledge of good and evil. Because of this we all choose to do wrong things, we can not help it, I do not mean that we do bad things all the time but we do choose to do bad things at times. Now after saying all this I want you to understand that I do not believe God punishes people by allowing children to be born with birth defects, He simply is letting life go as it may in our lives and wants to be a part of our lives to help us through such horrible things. I do however believe that all bad things happen from the result of the original sin. So vent at Adam not God, He is trying to help us without showing us with imperical proof He is real. Some of the greatest joy I have experienced came from a child that was born with a birth defect and to be honest I would not trade that for anything in the world. I've seen parents treat their children as if they were a burden to them and these children were completely normal and the love the parents gave to this one with the birth defect was absolutely amazing, love has a way of over coming many bad things and no love has a way of destroying what is good.

---

Lethe I agree with some of what you say, I do not agree with your reference that God is a tyrant, I see Him as a loving God who will help us to deal with whatever life deals us. I do not believe that evolution had a thing to do with compassion, that is a trait we receive from God. As for the wolves,elephants and other animals if times get hard they will sacrifice their young for the well being of the group. That is not what humans do we can see that evidence in all the starving people in the world and this is just one reason I believe in God.

(November 15, 2010 at 1:30 pm)Strongbad Wrote:

(November 15, 2010 at 1:05 pm)Cando Wrote:

(November 15, 2010 at 12:11 pm)Strongbad Wrote:

(November 12, 2010 at 5:06 pm)Cando Wrote: Birth defects are part of life.

Quote:But birth defects only affect a small proportion of the population.

I doubt that you would flippantly dispense these platitudes and statistics if YOU were born with a serious or disfiguring birth defect.

So you think that every single person on earth with a birth defect, even a serious birth defect, spends their life feeling sorry for themselves, unable to feel positive about it, let alone joke about it? You can doubt all you like, but there are many people who are like that. The righteous brigade such as yourself just love to perpetuate the victim mentality, encouraging such people to think of themselves as "poor me", so that you, Righteous, can come along and get all high and mighty and tell everyone else how caring you are. I was born with webbed feet and I don't need the likes of you claiming to give a shit about me or anybody else with the same or any other birth defect, condition, or illness. So you can shove your "caring" where the sun don't shine. I'm off for a game of football. Smell ya later.

Dang! For a "theist", you sure seem awfully hostile! I wonder what your deity thinks of such unwarranted aggression. Before you go assigning thoughts to me, let me tell you what I really think, Aquaman. Firstly, I don't give a shit about YOU. Secondly, if I have compassion for someone born with a serious birth defect or disease, that doesn't make me "righteous" or "high and mighty" - it only means that I am capable of empathy.

I hope the sun is shining during your football game!

Aquaman? Who the fuck is Aquaman? I'm Godhead!

(November 15, 2010 at 6:54 pm)Godschild Wrote: Lethe I agree with some of what you say, I do not agree with your reference that God is a tyrant, I see Him as a loving God who will help us to deal with whatever life deals us.

I actually wasn't trying to parallel evolution with God in that instance. I was trying to convey that the mechanism of evolution (natural selection) isn't a conscious process -- if environmental conditions permit (abundant food, medicine, fiscal support, et cetera), even genes considered to be defective will have the ability to pass on to future generations, as these defective genes don't put the human or humans at as great a disadvantage as they would under harsher conditions. So I wouldn't consider it corrupting the gene pool, as greater diversity leads to greater resilience (on the species level) to different threats.

Quote:I do not believe that evolution had a thing to do with compassion, that is a trait we receive from God. As for the wolves,elephants and other animals if times get hard they will sacrifice their young for the well being of the group. That is not what humans do we can see that evidence in all the starving people in the world and this is just one reason I believe in God.

I would have to say I disagree on humans being unable to sacrifice members of their own species, young or old, for a 'greater good'. Soldiers being the first brand of sacrifice that comes to mind. And there were those that sacrificed humans (sometimes their own children) to deities in the hopes a sacrifice of such magnitude would placate these gods. Cannibalism among the otherwise starving has been observed on numerous occasions. As well as using other humans as 'decoys' to escape being targeted oneself. From what I've observed, humans can and do resort to desperate measures during desperate times. Then again, I don't claim to be unbiased. Ultimately I view humans as animals, undoubtedly dissimilar to your views. That isn't to say I attribute us any less value than I would did I not. I must say I adore this hunk o' rock, warts and all.