Pretty simply, who we are is made up of two things: nature, and nurture.

Nature is the information already encoded in our DNA: from our height to our skin color to our propensity to fall victim to addiction to a thousand other things.

Nurture is the experiences we live, the influence of the people around us and of society.

Now, we are born without nurture by definition, so there all our choices are made by our genetic information. Then, the influence of parents, then family, friends, teachers, makes us who we are. And every choice we make is dependent of what we already experienced. Even when we make a choice, it is dictated by nature or nurture. Even when you break away from what you have been taught, there is a natural or "nurtural" reason for it.

So the question is: since we are products of two concepts that we have absolutely no control over, do we make decisions at all or are we just complicated pre-programmed machines, with no free will ?

No free will, our brains are extremely elaborate multichannel Rube Goldberg machines containing both preprogramed and programmable parts. The behavior of the machine is determined by the input, the preprograming, the programing, and the state of biological construction and repair of all its parts. The perception of freewill is part of the mechanism, but even that part is fundamentally deterministic. The entire machine is ultimately deterministic, although due to the nonlinear complexity of the mechanism and uncertainties surrounding the exact values of all relevent inputs, its behavior might seem difficult to predict.

Between the two options, nature or nurture, this post is a "nurture" option. So even if I decide to do the opposite of what I normally would to create the sense of a choice it still is caused by the "nurture" aspect of reality. However, that's more like saying "Is there an option besides not breathing or actually breathing?" By breaking all choice into two major and unspecific categories you have assured that from the restrictions of your circumstances there is no "choice". In reality, choice is not a human construct, it merely exists much in the same way that death exists. Choice exists, but our choice is influenced by the "nature" and "nurture" variables, and can't merely be broken down into two simple categories, one of which is "A" and the other of which is "anything but A".

Every action has been determined by an unbroken series of prior events. We do not have choice.

So Shiny,

If you really believe that do you get mad at people when they treat you badly? I would think that anyone who truely held the belief that there is no choice and "Every action has been determined by an unbroken series of prior events." then they would be the most forgiving person because they realize that people are just doing what they must.

Is there any such thing as a choice?

Yes.......... I mean no........... I mean................ daaaaahhh I cant decide!

but serously.

In the hitch hikers guide to the gallaxy it speculated that if you knew the exact location of everything at the time of the big bang and had a mastery of all of the physical laws, then you could know that 13.7 billion years later I'd be typing this now, just buy working it out with a giant computer.

This is clearly rubbish, it takes no account of chaos theory and truly random events.

(November 16, 2010 at 12:48 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: If you really believe that do you get mad at people when they treat you badly? I would think that anyone who truly held the belief that there is no choice and "Every action has been determined by an unbroken series of prior events." then they would be the most forgiving person because they realize that people are just doing what they must.

Wouldn't one then be doing what they must by becoming angry?

I've always viewed agency as internalization of external events, though this mechanism of internalization is predetermined based on one's internal makeup, and the external events that influence it. So ultimately, is there choice? Perhaps not, but the illusion of choice is a persistent one.

Not unlike in the Sims, you can crank their "free will" on high and leave them to their own devices -- but are they really making decisions, or acting in accordance to predetermined algorithms? Natural laws would not serve a purpose that differs much (if at all, outside of complexity) from these predetermined algorithms. And while sims are not sentient in and of themselves, as humans and many other animals are, consciousness itself is subject to natural law. This could by extension be seen as just another aspect of a universal form of coding.

(November 16, 2010 at 12:48 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: If you really believe that do you get mad at people when they treat you badly? I would think that anyone who truely held the belief that there is no choice and "Every action has been determined by an unbroken series of prior events." then they would be the most forgiving person because they realize that people are just doing what they must.

Well you'd think so, but the reaction we have is also predetermined, we have the illusion of choice.

If you decide not to get angry because you see all events as already determined then that was determined, of course if you get angry then that was also determined.

That's just my viewpoint though.

Shiny,

I figured that was the answer I would receive but part of that reaction is predicated on the idea that the person had a choice to be nice to you. For me, if I feel that someone truely has no choice to act a certain way I can find no fault in their action so it doesn't effect as much of an emotional response in me. If I had a true belief that people are simply doing what they must then I would certainly be less emotional about what they are doing. I actually use that idea to reframe what is going on around me all the time.

I believe we do have a choice, not in the moment but before, by selecting what goes into our decision making process. I can choose what books to read, what ideology to follow, etc.

Lethe,

Your avatar needs to stop flirting with me it is distracting and I am only a mushroom after all! see above.

(November 16, 2010 at 5:02 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: Shiny,

I figured that was the answer I would receive but part of that reaction is predicated on the idea that the person had a choice to be nice to you. For me, if I feel that someone truely has no choice to act a certain way I can find no fault in their action so it doesn't effect as much of an emotional response in me. If I had a true belief that people are simply doing what they must then I would certainly be less emotional about what they are doing. I actually use that idea to reframe what is going on around me all the time.

Someone being an arse, whether it has already been determined or not, is still upsetting and thus I feel the emotional response will be unaffected.