(September 30, 2015 at 9:32 pm)robvalue Wrote: Regardless of specifics, the "die for a lie" argument is totally broken. Simply put, the level to which someone believes something, and what they are prepared to do for that belief, in no way tells you whether the belief is actually true. People can be mistaken. There seems to be this weird notion that no one from 2000 years ago could possibly ever be mistaken about anything.

Tracey Harris gives a clinical takedown of it here:

http://youtu.be/bHEiBvB-Xu0

Tracey Harris is a badass. 

She said it much better than I could have.

I love where she details why the claims of the "they were martyred for what they believed, so they couldn't have believed in a lie, because nobody dies for a lie" argument is simply not true, or at least it's a terrible, terrible argument, and it's made worse when they try to claim that we know all the apostles and (alleged) eyewitnesses died for this reason.

For instance, she explained, Stephen was martyred for saying the Jews murdered Jesus, not for preaching the resurrection.

These preachers who are telling their sheep to claim that they have evidence that they simply don't have, then to say, "Ha, atheists, prove otherwise!" 

They should be ashamed of themselves for this... but it's no stranger than the Christians who tried to manufacture bits of the cross, the apocrypha, and the many many interpolations. It's okay, to them, as long as people "get saved". 

But, as I've said many times, Lying For Jesus™ is still lying.

Of course the biggest reason not to follow Jesus is that you would drown.

(September 29, 2015 at 3:02 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: If you are in possession of the truth then why would you need to insult me? You should be able to bring you evidence and stand by it without fear or the need to be defensive.

Fear...lol...no, there's no fear, and I'm not being defensive. I'm insulting you because I find your igorance and blatant stupidity a bit irritating.

Quote:So what are the preconditions that allow for knowledge, logic, reason and uniformity?

For those first three, the most basic conditions seem to be that brains must exist, and they must have a way to get information from outside themselves, and that information has to be consistent enough with itself that reasonable, logical conclusions can be drawn from it.


By "uniformity," I think you mean to describe the Universal Constants, and nobody really knows why those never change or why they are the exact numbers they are. You will claim to know, but you don't. You just have a made-up explanation that says your Gaud did it.

Quote:What makes you think I have not been challenged or allowed myself to challenge my own beliefs? What make you think that the way I live in submission to God is the same as your experience with Christianity? Why do you assume that I put my faith in the same place you put yours? You assume I never had a problem with anything I have read in the Bible. The reason why I still believe is because I know God. Since I know Him I allow Him to explain what I am reading.

Have you challenged your view on wither morals are relative? Have you challenged your views on abortion? Have your challenged your views on evolution? Did you fact check the page that you presented to me about failed prophecies? Have you challenged your view on the creation of the universe? Have the challenged your views on how nonliving matter became living matter? Have you challenged your views on wither people can even be unbiased?

I arrived at my current views after a long, long process of challenging my old ones, and I challenge my current beliefs on a daily basis. I am always seeking newer and better information. You, on the other hand, simply rely on your indoctrinated scripts and your super-human ignorance to shield you from the truth. You're not really challenging yourself, you're just confirming your preconceived notions using circular logic and fallacious reasoning.

Quote:You were not a Christian if
You did not receive the revelation from God that He is God
You never gave your life to  Him in order to enjoy Him and glorify Him.
You never knew God or wanted to be like Him and became like Him.
You never had power over you sin nature and you didn't enjoy your sin because of your love for God.
You left the faith and turned your back on God

Fuck you, you ignorant liar.


Oh, and by the way, let me fix that for you:

Quote:You were not a Christian if
You never believed that Jesus is the son of Jehovah, and that he died and was resurrected to save you from sin.

See, what you're doing there is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, which is where one takes something that is up to a wide range of interpretation (i.e. "being a True Christian") and then claims that if an example doesn't meet his or her specific definition of that thing, it isn't truly one of those things.


For example, if I said, "No cat eats Fancy Feast," and then my cat turns to me and says, "Fuck you, buddy, I love me some Fancy Feast," and then I respond with "Ah, but no true cat eats fancy feast...WHOAH A TALKING CAT?!" that would be a No True Scotsman fallacy. It only works because my definition of "cat" in that case is completely arbitrary and individual, just like your list of criterion for being a True Christian. Three different Christians will have three different versions of what it means to be a True Christian, while the rest of the world lumps "people who profess belief in Jesus" into the Christian pile and thinks you all sound ridiculous arguing over which ones are True Christians.


If we try applying your logic to anything besides religion, it's easy to see how it comes apart:


If you leave your job as an architect and turn your back on being an architect, you were never a True Architect.


If you leave Pittsburg and turn your back on the Steelers, you were never a True Steelers Fan.


If you stop having Blue as a favorite color and turn your back on it by picking a different favorite, then Blue was never really your favorite in the first place.


If you continue to preach to people on the Internet instead of turning your back and dusting your heels off when we don't listen to you, then you don't follow the teachings of Jesus and therefore aren't a True Christian.

Quote:You make a lot of knowledge claims but what is your evidence that I am much much MUCH older than you? You make bold statements that have no bases in reality I am only 32. No I have not drunk the Kool-aid of our generation.

Shit, you're older than I thought. Did they even have Kool-Aid when you were growing up? Did the dinosaurs go extinct because of poisoned, prehistoric Kool-Aid? What was Moses like?


Joking aside, I was mostly just being mean because I know women are sensitive about their age. My only reason to believe you're that old was the level of closed-mindedness and indoctrination you're displaying. You may not have drunk the Kool-Aid of my generation, but you are practically bathing in whatever they were drinking 2,000 years ago when they wrote this bullshit down.

(September 30, 2015 at 10:07 am)Stimbo Wrote: Do you think the September 11 hijackers were justified in their actions? Why would they die for a lie?

They believed it to be true and no they were not justified.

If the disciples knew that Jesus had not been raised then why would they die? They were done and afraid after the death of Jesus. No one excepted Him to come back to life even though He told them that he would.

(September 30, 2015 at 12:15 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: Reason #1 why just following Jesus won't work:  that sucker hasn't moved an inch in 2,000 years.  You can't follow what doesn't move.  

Or maybe it just means follow his example.  If only our born again elected officials here in the states would do that instead of obsessing about eliminating the few entitlements we have for the poor.

He has moved and is still moving.

That to say that those who are elected are born again

(September 30, 2015 at 8:02 pm)robvalue Wrote: I realised something. "Christian atheist" isn't actually as weird as it sounds.

The religion someone is a member of only tells you about their professed beliefs. It gives no indication as to whether they actually believe any of them. A person is an atheist if they actually don't believe in God, regardless of what they profess.

In this way, there are probably a very high number of atheist Christians. The reasons for this will vary of course.

I agree

(October 1, 2015 at 9:57 am)Rekeisha Wrote:

(September 30, 2015 at 10:07 am)Stimbo Wrote: Do you think the September 11 hijackers were justified in their actions? Why would they die for a lie?

They believed it to be true and no they were not justified.

If the disciples knew that Jesus had not been raised then why would they die? They were done and afraid after the death of Jesus. No one excepted Him to come back to life even though He told them that he would.

Just checking to see if you put me on ignore, since I answered that question numerous times (and in several threads). Others have also answered you.

Are you just refusing to see what we respond to you with?

If so, why ask us?

(September 30, 2015 at 8:08 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(September 30, 2015 at 9:46 am)Rekeisha Wrote: Why would the disciples die for a lie? Some were crucified when they could have easily said that Jesus didn't rise from the grave. If they didn't see Jesus then what was the point?

Sweetie, none of them were executed for "refusing to say Jesus didn't rise from the grave". Not one.

They were executed as followers and promoters of a false and pernicious doctrine that claimed authority was in a Jewish man who was called "The Annointed One" (messiah), and not in the "true authority", the Roman Emperor who "rightfully" ruled the Roman Province of Judea.

Their teachings were seen as treasonous. They saw their teachings as nationalist, at least at first, and later spread the word as it had evolved to the other provinces of Rome. The authorities, according to Josephus and Tacitus (et al) felt this was a dangerous anti-authoritarian cult that needed to be wiped out. They failed, and the religion grew and changed with time.

---

If you'd like to try an experiment, start a religious sect (it can be Christian, or not, as you prefer) and teach the members of the group that the United States has no authority and that members can defy the laws and customs of the country.

See how long they tolerate you. Oh, it won't be as soon or as harsh as the Romans were, where defying the Emperor was seen as akin to defying the authority of the gods, and defying the Empire got you killed. But it'll happen, even here where the USA guarantees you can believe whatever you want.

Your image of Romans killing Christians for refusing to deny that Jesus rose from the dead is a comic-book story, making the Romans out to either be buffoons or demonic puppets, instead of the most efficient military the world had ever seen up to that time. The Romans were actually famous for religious tolerance, so long as you didn't have a religious view that denied the authority of Rome... then you might have to die.

Like America did with the Branch Davidians.

Well Hun, while the disciples were with Him they excepted Jesus to come in and remove the Roman authority over Israel and rule on earth. They did not expect Him to die and no just a regular mans death but a death reserved for the worst of criminals. ( psalms 22) What do you think they thought would be their fate would be since they were with Him? They were not those types of people to boldly keep up this lie. Peter wasn't even able to keep cool and denied Jesus when a servant girl confronted him about His association with Him. This is before Jesus hadn't even been crucified yet. (John 18) So you are telling me this guy who at the end of his life was willing to be crucified upside down, out of reverence for God, was doing it out of will power? Peter was done with being Jesus' disciple. He went back to fishing and Jesus had to come to him and call him back to being his disciple.

Also the tomb that Jesus was placed in was common knowledge to the leaders in Jerusalem. That is why they were able to seal the tomb and place guards at the tomb. Also Jesus' female disciples knew where the tomb was. They expected to go there and dress a dead body. If they expected Christ to be alive then why even go back to the tomb? When the disciples went to the tomb and found it empty they didn't start walking around telling people Jesus rose from the dead. It wasn't until they saw Jesus and even then they didn't go around spreading the news about Who Jesus was.

So if it was their intention to usurp Rome they would have the have a weak story. The guy who was a Jew and was crucified has all authority. We are pretty sure he rose from the grave but we don't really know. Yeah and the first one to find the empty tomb were women who's testimony is not accepted in court. Also we don't have any special training we are just some dudes who were fishermen, an tax collector (who were the worst in society). Yes of course this will work.

They were not being disruptive they were living their lives and in some cases because they were Christian they could not work and were considered the worst of society. Paul even says be at peace as much as you can with the people around you. Also obey your government authority. These were not revolutionaries just people who knew that Jesus is God and has risen from the dead.

What I have heard from you is that we don't know where Jesus body is but some guys who could have easily went back to a quite life deiced to hold on to a lie so that in the end of their lives a bunch of people believed the same lie an died like they did. Some even died by bing impaled and burned like lanterns in Nero's garden. It is one thing to believe a lie and take your own life. It is another to allow someone to throw your own child to lions and still believe that Jesus is God. I promise you if I didn't know Jesus and I could save my child's life by just denying it I would.

That is why paul says 1 cor 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Of course there is no more evidence for any fucking "disciples" than there is for jesus so worrying about what they did is a bit like asking why the Klingons threw their lives away fighting Captain Kirk.

(October 1, 2015 at 8:53 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(September 29, 2015 at 3:02 pm)Rekeisha Wrote: If you are in possession of the truth then why would you need to insult me? You should be able to bring you evidence and stand by it without fear or the need to be defensive.

Fear...lol...no, there's no fear, and I'm not being defensive. I'm insulting you because I find your igorance and blatant stupidity a bit irritating.

Quote:So what are the preconditions that allow for knowledge, logic, reason and uniformity?

For those first three, the most basic conditions seem to be that brains must exist, and they must have a way to get information from outside themselves, and that information has to be consistent enough with itself that reasonable, logical conclusions can be drawn from it.


By "uniformity," I think you mean to describe the Universal Constants, and nobody really knows why those never change or why they are the exact numbers they are. You will claim to know, but you don't. You just have a made-up explanation that says your Gaud did it.

Quote:What makes you think I have not been challenged or allowed myself to challenge my own beliefs? What make you think that the way I live in submission to God is the same as your experience with Christianity? Why do you assume that I put my faith in the same place you put yours? You assume I never had a problem with anything I have read in the Bible. The reason why I still believe is because I know God. Since I know Him I allow Him to explain what I am reading.

Have you challenged your view on wither morals are relative? Have you challenged your views on abortion? Have your challenged your views on evolution? Did you fact check the page that you presented to me about failed prophecies? Have you challenged your view on the creation of the universe? Have the challenged your views on how nonliving matter became living matter? Have you challenged your views on wither people can even be unbiased?

I arrived at my current views after a long, long process of challenging my old ones, and I challenge my current beliefs on a daily basis. I am always seeking newer and better information. You, on the other hand, simply rely on your indoctrinated scripts and your super-human ignorance to shield you from the truth. You're not really challenging yourself, you're just confirming your preconceived notions using circular logic and fallacious reasoning.

Quote:You were not a Christian if
You did not receive the revelation from God that He is God
You never gave your life to  Him in order to enjoy Him and glorify Him.
You never knew God or wanted to be like Him and became like Him.
You never had power over you sin nature and you didn't enjoy your sin because of your love for God.
You left the faith and turned your back on God

Fuck you, you ignorant liar.


Oh, and by the way, let me fix that for you:

Quote:You were not a Christian if
You never believed that Jesus is the son of Jehovah, and that he died and was resurrected to save you from sin.

See, what you're doing there is called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, which is where one takes something that is up to a wide range of interpretation (i.e. "being a True Christian") and then claims that if an example doesn't meet his or her specific definition of that thing, it isn't truly one of those things.


For example, if I said, "No cat eats Fancy Feast," and then my cat turns to me and says, "Fuck you, buddy, I love me some Fancy Feast," and then I respond with "Ah, but no true cat eats fancy feast...WHOAH A TALKING CAT?!" that would be a No True Scotsman fallacy. It only works because my definition of "cat" in that case is completely arbitrary and individual, just like your list of criterion for being a True Christian. Three different Christians will have three different versions of what it means to be a True Christian, while the rest of the world lumps "people who profess belief in Jesus" into the Christian pile and thinks you all sound ridiculous arguing over which ones are True Christians.


If we try applying your logic to anything besides religion, it's easy to see how it comes apart:


If you leave your job as an architect and turn your back on being an architect, you were never a True Architect.


If you leave Pittsburg and turn your back on the Steelers, you were never a True Steelers Fan.


If you stop having Blue as a favorite color and turn your back on it by picking a different favorite, then Blue was never really your favorite in the first place.


If you continue to preach to people on the Internet instead of turning your back and dusting your heels off when we don't listen to you, then you don't follow the teachings of Jesus and therefore aren't a True Christian.

Quote:You make a lot of knowledge claims but what is your evidence that I am much much MUCH older than you? You make bold statements that have no bases in reality I am only 32. No I have not drunk the Kool-aid of our generation.

Shit, you're older than I thought. Did they even have Kool-Aid when you were growing up? Did the dinosaurs go extinct because of poisoned, prehistoric Kool-Aid? What was Moses like?


Joking aside, I was mostly just being mean because I know women are sensitive about their age. My only reason to believe you're that old was the level of closed-mindedness and indoctrination you're displaying. You may not have drunk the Kool-Aid of my generation, but you are practically bathing in whatever they were drinking 2,000 years ago when they wrote this bullshit down.

So you can't account for uniformity. If there is nothing out there that is making things stay in order why do you assume that there will be order?

Being a true Christian isn't like a job or being a fan. If you thought I was something like that then that is further proof that you weren't a Christian. Christianity isn't just holding a set of beliefs it is transformational. It is kind of like being of a certain race. I can't undo my color because it is written on my DNA. I can't undo my faith in God because I am now a new creation. That is why God spoke about being born again. You can try but you don't get to make up your own definition about what being a Christian and what Christianity really is. You can call that indoctrination I would just call it being consistent with the truth.

You were not a Christian if (with scripture references)
You did not receive the revelation from God that He is God (Mt. 16:16-18)
You never gave your life to  Him in order to enjoy Him and glorify Him. ( l Cor. 10:31, Ps 84:2)
You never knew God or wanted to be like Him and became like Him. (2 Cor 3:18)
You never had power over you sin nature and you didn't enjoy your sin because of your love for God. (Romans 6:11-13)
You left the faith and turned your back on God (1 john 2:19 John 10:28)

I don't mind being bathed in the blood of Christ because it is the only way I will be able to stand before a holy God and be called righteous. The Kool-aid of our generation kills.