I was brought up as an atheist, by my non-theist Grandfather, who has very limited scientific background. When I asked him such of the big questions when I was younger, I'd get replies such as, 'there was a Big Bang' or 'we came from monkeys', which can be very misleading to a small child. When I started school, I took my first religion class, and was "informed about God". I was convinced I knew the answer to everything and it was quite disappointing, when I got home, and was punished for believing in a deity. Over the years I have listened to my Granddad's ritualistic rants about the 'brainwashed terrorists' of religion, and frankly although I believe most religions to be illogical, through my own self-education, I don't really appreciate his attacks on other people's beliefs.

My opinion of atheists got a little more warped, when I joined a forum, and was a frequent visitor of psychology and philosophy sections. Often I would mention that I was a non-believer because I didn't want my answers to be clogged up with rants that Jesus would 'come and save' me from my problems. Instead, I'd receive nasty posts from atheists, who were convinced that I 'didn't sound enough like an Atheist' and basically start attacking my 'Christian beliefs' even though I clearly stated I did not believe. Often the topic of my questions would be warped to evolve around any specific trivial belief-system I had mentioned, so that I could be personally attacked for 'not not-believing enough'.

My experience with Atheists hasn't been a very good one.
I'm hoping that the people who reply to this post will give me some hope out there that I don't have to be ashamed of not believing, just because I'm not as certain and proclaim myself to be more Agnostic at times.. I'm still searching for an answer to why most of the Atheists I have talked to seem to be so unrealistically defensive about their stance. Hopefully joining this forum will help me to meet nice atheists. I still have hope

Not all atheists are defensive. People are individuals. However, I do defend my position because I see it as right. I don't think that is the type of defensive you meant, though.

I'm not surprised, I was on another atheist forum where if you didn't toe the atheist party line you were attacked.

Which is bizarre since agnosticism is just as(if not more) valid than atheism.

ps hi

(December 4, 2010 at 10:24 pm)Prosimian Wrote: I was brought up as an atheist, by my non-theist Grandfather, who has very limited scientific background.

Are atheists overly defensive? I'm not quite sure what you mean, after reading your experiences with theists and atheists I'm even more confused so I'd like to raise some questions about your summarised life history or testimony rather:

You start by stating you were brought up to be an atheist, ordinarily I wouldn't object to this except that identifying your grandfather's approach from "nontheism" doesn't really tell us a lot about what you were being taught as it includes a variety of beliefs and positions. It also begs the question how is one raised an atheist if atheism is the default position regarding religious claims? Not trying to put words into your mouth but that's what you're implying, perhaps unintentionally. I can't see you being indoctrinated into non-belief in a concept when you never believed to begin with.

Quote:When I started school, I took my first religion class, and was "informed about God". I was convinced I knew the answer to everything and it was quite disappointing, when I got home, and was punished for believing in a deity.

You attended just one religious education class and immediately starting believing in a deity?

Quote:Over the years I have listened to my Granddad's ritualistic rants about the 'brainwashed terrorists' of religion, and frankly although I believe most religions to be illogical, through my own self-education, I don't really appreciate his attacks on other people's beliefs.

Is your grandfather not entitled to his beliefs though? He might have had a valid point though, did he specifically quote 9/11 and other countless atrocities committed in the name of a supernatural being whose very existence can't be demonstrated or proven?

Quote:My opinion of atheists got a little more warped, when I joined a forum, and was a frequent visitor of psychology and philosophy sections.

Which forum? What was the target audience of the message board you were on? I hate to keep questioning you constantly but you need to be less vague for me to understand what your criticisms of us are.

Quote:Often I would mention that I was a non-believer because I didn't want my answers to be clogged up with rants that Jesus would 'come and save' me from my problems.

You'll often find that, when you profess that stance, the exact opposite happens, and you literally become a magnet for theists (mostly Christians) hoping to test their faith and/or save you from some divine wrath/punishment and convert you to their theology. I should know, I used to do exactly that before I deconverted.

Quote:Instead, I'd receive nasty posts from atheists, who were convinced that I 'didn't sound enough like an Atheist' and basically start attacking my 'Christian beliefs' even though I clearly stated I did not believe.

I'm really not following you here, you have Christian beliefs? Or are you talking about the pool of knowledge you acquired over the years about Christianity in general?

Quote:Often the topic of my questions would be warped to evolve around any specific trivial belief-system I had mentioned, so that I could be personally attacked for 'not not-believing enough'.

The problem I see here Prosimian, is you're not being completely transparent on what this "arbitrary belief-system" you've developed actually is, and if you were attacked for it, it may well be possible that you attempted to redefine and conflate atheism and theism to the point where they're no longer distinguishable (as so many have done before) regardless that the words have definitions that already carry established meanings with them.

If you held any position on theistic beliefs on the forum but simply didn't want publicly address or discuss them for fear of "not believing enough" reprisals you're essentially talking about apatheism, not atheism. If you *are* an apatheist (not saying you are) and denied their claims for fear of the aforementioned responses, your creditability would be placed under scrutiny. Atheists and theists alike tend to expose those who falsely identify themselves as both i.e. "I believe and don't believe in god(s)" because one of those is a lie and they're simply proclaiming this middle ground in order to please and/or deceive others' standards of approval.

Quote:I'm hoping that the people who reply to this post will give me some hope out there that I don't have to be ashamed of not believing, just because I'm not as certain and proclaim myself to be more Agnostic at times.. I'm still searching for an answer to why most of the Atheists I have talked to seem to be so unrealistically defensive about their stance. Hopefully joining this forum will help me to meet nice atheists. I still have hope

Unrealistically defensive? What do you mean by 'unrealistic'? You can trust me not to attack you for your beliefs because frankly I don't care what you profess your beliefs are, however I do care about intellectual honesty and integrity because I've had lousy exchanges in the past with people face-to-face who not only lied about their beliefs but even refused to give me their real names – I'm NOT calling you dishonest but as this is your first post I'd urge you at this point to go into much more detail about what you actually identify yourself as.

Atheists are all different individuals - I once registered at an atheist forum from my country (Ukraine)- it had only several active members, which consisted of several communists that thought communism was the logical step from atheism and also a priest. wow.

I think that we (atheists) tend to be a little defensive, due to the massive amounts of religion we encounter in our every day lives. We get defensive easily and it may seem (to the theist) that it happens instantly, when the fact is that it was building from other sources prior to that encounter. It doesn't seem like believers see how much religion has permeated society at large, nor how preachy the neighborhood grocery store can be at times.

This is a purely American perspective, I know. Man, it sucks to be an atheist in the U.S.

I had no idea there was a possibility of being a 'poseur' Atheist. This concept is screamingly funny to me. What exactly does one gain?

I suspect a lot of your problems may arise from communication crosswires more than anything else. One of the reasons I love this forum is there are many, many intelligent people on here who scare the hell out of me with their argument skills and I find the chance to possibly knock heads and observe them in action immensely enjoyable - you have to learn to be very specific with your language, or people WILL jump all over you. The majority of it isn't hostile though...we just love to debate.

But for the most part, we're a good bunch, yeah?

I enjoy getting offensive.

Atheists are only as defensive as one can be when one sees an incoming tidal wave of bullshit. We're just upset that the rest of our brethren are willfully ignorant of said wave.

(December 5, 2010 at 1:28 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: I had no idea there was a possibility of being a 'poseur' Atheist.

S.E. Cupp.



An atheist with a book entitled Losing Our Religion. Oh Fox...