(October 13, 2015 at 6:29 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: lol why?

That you can imagine yourself being convinced that a toaster is God is sad.

(October 13, 2015 at 7:06 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(October 13, 2015 at 6:29 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: lol why?

That you can imagine yourself being convinced that a toaster is God is sad.

no i cant imagine any toaster convincing me that it is God

Why not, you said you didn't have criteria, so "because god can't be a toaster" isn't relevant, and you just got through telling us how a toaster could convince you that it was a god. Can you see why I'm having trouble understanding this "relationship" of yours? Imagine having this conversation regarding your mother. Could a toaster convince you that it was your mother?

This is not my beautiful house

omg, I never knew!  I was cleaning the toaster too often!  It seems that the crumbs underneath the toaster act as antennas (or maybe it's the ants heading for the crumbs, they have antennas) for the glorious vibrations that a toaster can channel!  Do you think it's because bread crumbs are made out of the same glorious elements as the great and all-powerful FSM?? That's possible.  The FSM could have sent the vibrations via his glorious angels - that must be it - Oh, I feel amazing!  Who knew?

(October 13, 2015 at 7:35 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Why not, you said you didn't have criteria, so "because god can't be a toaster" isn't relevant, and you just got through telling us how a toaster could convince you that it was a god.  Can you see why I'm having trouble understanding this "relationship" of yours?  Imagine having this conversation regarding your mother.  Could a toaster convince you that it was your mother?

i never said a toaster could convince me it was God i said that if it did (which it couldnt) then i would believe . God isnt a toaster and God is convincing . i dont have a relationship with a toaster or believe that i can or believe that it is God or that it can convince me that it is .

(October 12, 2015 at 11:58 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: just not the pseudo science of psychology/psychiatry and the many many many many many many different unscientific theories about how the mind works . its all based on theory and interpretation . exactly like religion .

You keep making this claim, now I'm calling bullshit. Perhaps you can provide some evidence that current psychology has "many many many many many many different unscientific theories about how the mind works." We'll be here waiting for your evidence of this claim. After all, it shouldn't take you too long since there are sooooo many different theories, right?

Time to put up or shut up!

oh no no no, you can't go away, no not now . . . I need help!!  I've spent the entire evening on my knees with my cheek on the kitchen counter, trying to get that feeling again.   It's gone, it's gone!!!  How do I get it back??  I mean, I prayed to Jesus for decades and got NOTHING.  Nothing.  Suddenly I feel this thing that I can't . . . it was like . . . ????   All I know is I need more!!!
Oh no, you are my guru.  I'm following you until you help me.

robvalue

Quote:It appears you're talking about God like it has severe problems which stop it being able to communicate effectively, for which we should make allowances.

Spot on ! though not a severe "problem"; but a reason : since this life is a test ; he wouldn't actually show himself to you or talk to you directly, the same reason why you don't see angles. Prophets are the exception since they receive words & revelations.

Quote: Born with a relationship? What does that mean? That sounds like involuntary conscription to something, not a relationship.

Exactly. We are born "slaves" to that deity after all. Life itself is slavery to God; a slavery that allows you to enjoy the taste of food, a pleasurable sex with between you and another human springing with love, and the famous example : the ability to think freely and make your imagination carry you to realms of wonderfulness; combined with an ability to turn them dreams to become true.

It is..a person who refuse that slavery, is simply defying life.

Quote:Yes, knowledge changes. But we don't call something knowledge until there is adequate evidence that such a thing is real. So I don't know what your point is here. Are you claiming to have more knowledge than us, thus putting us in the "cave man" category? If not, what's the point of such a comparison? Speculating on what may or may not become knowledge is pointless, as this puts every belief on equal footing just because it "might turn out to be true".

Yes I'm putting non-believers in the shoes of the caveman. According to what you said; the caveman has enough reason to call viruses "bogus" just because he couldn't find the microscope that allows him to penetrate through.

But you're insulting me if you called me "smarter"; because then, you actually narrowed me to a point where me "insult others"..A lot of members here are smarter than me in science, language & philosophy. But in this exact topic; denying the existence God, because the method of seeing him (or the knowledge) is not in your possession, is an exact intersection with the caveman example.

Quote:Well, that means the opposing side is failing to communicate effectively, due to a lack of common understanding. Since we're talking about deities, I would expect that they would know exactly what language to use if they actually wanted to communicate. You seem to be suggesting they choose to pick a language that they know some people won't be able to interpret. That's not them trying to have a relationship with us all, that's sending out coded messages to the "elite" who they decided beforehand would be able to read them.

Actually, the language is clear but the "static" is keeping people from understanding it. The static is well known to be "sins". It's not the message that is codded; but the static has a blinding effect.

Quote:Unsupported assertion. This isn't an argument. You're just arbitrarily assigning agency to things around you. Humans are pattern seekers, so much so that we try and force things to fit a pattern, even where there is none. That is a far simpler explanation.

It depends on your   measurement of the phenomena. To me, the universe is acting under a law that is too coherent & magnificent;with things arranged around us in a certain way, that sends a message of a creator. On this, it totally depends on the perception; something that atheists & believers never settled.

Quote:So a deity can't, or won't, reply to me in a way I can understand, within a reasonable time frame, like humans can? How is this different from talking to no-one, and then randomly interpreting things in the future as being the return of communication? Just because you say you're talking to something, it doesn't mean that thing actually exists or is hearing you.

That's the bet a believer puts their all on; only death will decide it. Though I can tell you for certain, that some prayers of mine got answered, in a way that kept me shocked for years. Placed a mark on me too that I shall never forget.

Though, randomly explaining future acts can lead a believer to atheism.

Quote:I'm not asking for a direct response all the time. Just a reasonable amount of the time; at least some of the time. I've never had a direct response from "god", or indeed any response at all. I just get people pointing to random things and saying, "That was the response". I can have relationships with many animals. We can communicate through touch, and by what we do visually for each other.

What if you had that one girl in college ? she is a year younger than you; though you secretly loved her for let's say 2 years ? though you prayed for her to be with you, to at least get a chance with her.

In your graduation year; you start seeing her in your dreams.

Out of a sudden; you discover that she "cut through" the semesters through summer courses and catch up with you.

The surprise : she joins your graduation team.

The bigger surprise : she becomes your friend.
I prayed; and it happened. That wasn't "random".

But hey.. even if you pray to "be with her", God is not a dictator. If she is a bad person, and "manipulates" her friends to get free favors, she won't turn into a good girl and be with you. Even if she lied & seduced you for a whole year to get "free" favors out of you.

But it happened. Believe me or not; I prayed to get a chance with her.

Quote:I don't know what this means. If you decide beforehand that you are receiving messages from god, then you're going to interpret whatever random stuff as messages from god. The problem is, this works for anything. I can convince myself I'm talking to my dead relative, or a being in another dimension, or even my spoon if I am willing to just point at stuff that happens later and say, "The spoon did that". That's not what I would call a meaningful relationship. I don't think you would either, if we were talking about anything other than religion. Why is god so bad at relationships? I'd expect him to be the best at them, not the worst. God is clearly being deliberately difficult to interpret. If we're not clever enough to interpret him properly, then he's pretty stupid for making creatures for which to have a relationship which are not properly equipped to do so. That's like me building a robot with no auditory senses and then sitting there talking to it. What the fuck?

The exam; rob. Our real life starts after death anyways. You will learn his language when you break the static; if you didn't mind the static that is corrupting everything, then you don't deserve to learn; actually he will keep you dwell in darkness.

(October 13, 2015 at 11:12 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: oh no no no, you can't go away, no not now . . . I need help!!  I've spent the entire evening on my knees with my cheek on the kitchen counter, trying to get that feeling again.   It's gone, it's gone!!!  How do I get it back??  I mean, I prayed to Jesus for decades and got NOTHING.  Nothing.  Suddenly I feel this thing that I can't . . . it was like . . . ????   All I know is I need more!!!
Oh no, you are my guru.  I'm following you until you help me.

* puts a shiny toaster in front of miss kitty *