That's great MTL, it sounds like you are getting your head around this all

(October 16, 2015 at 8:10 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: MTL, can I ask what your interactions with your sister are like? What's your fighting style? Do you yell and scream at each other?

I don't mind answering this question; it's an interesting query, actually.

First of all, fighting was always the last resort.

I tried really, really hard to bond with my sister...for decades;
returning kindness for her every unkindness;
"turning the other cheek" as it were.

But the nicer I was to her,
the more unkind she would become...

...so eventually, of course,
it would, occasionally build to a head and explode.

When we were teens, these confrontations involved screaming, name-calling, a bit of mutual shoving and slapping.

As adults, some screaming....but no physical contact....however, some actual debate was attempted

Since the birth of my nephew three years ago,
ALL handling of differences between my sister and I,
went through my mother; she acted as a go-between,
with zero actual confrontation between my sister and I.

(That system worked to my sister's advantage, so she wants that to continue,
because she knows how to manipulate and coerce my mother;

and because she knows that if I am allowed to speak,
that her manipulations will be exposed).

BUT MOST RECENTLY:
this big argument, this past weekend,
was actually the first of its kind:

She was completely and utterly unwilling to let me speak on my own behalf, at all.

(And I was taken completely off guard by this, in a way, because, I confess:

I was actually was expecting her to have grown up a bit;
I was expecting her to perhaps finally express recognition of all my efforts at kindness and diplomacy;

and perhaps even get a little acknowledgement and ownership of her past actions,
maybe even a commitment to mutual respect, in the future,
and some support of my ambitions).


See, in years past, she always opposed me....but she at least engaged with me.

...but I think NOW she realizes:
 
1.  I am too good at exposing her bullshit,

2.  That she has given me a wealth of bullshit to expose.

So her solution is also twofold:

1.  Create the PRIMARY illusion
...that anything I will say is going to be bullshit;

2.  Create the SECONDARY illusion
....that it is therefore intolerable to even consider the idea, that my words deserve the chance to even be uttered.

(October 16, 2015 at 1:38 pm)robvalue Wrote: That's great MTL, it sounds like you are getting your head around this all

Thank you Rob.  You guys helped me to clarify my thoughts.

My pleasure

She sounds like a walking face-palm.

(October 16, 2015 at 1:45 pm)robvalue Wrote: My pleasure

She sounds like a walking face-palm.

Humph.  Understatement.

(October 16, 2015 at 12:37 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(October 16, 2015 at 11:40 am)MTL Wrote: Rob I have an extremely similar system, myself, actually!

I've tried describing it to a few family members, only to be blown-off, of course.

I developed this system after years of being told to "respect my elders"
even as some of my elders acted like spoiled children.

I assume everyone is worthy of respect; regardless of their age.

How they behave subsequently will determine if my level of respect increases, or decreases.

I will give an extra mead of respect to a stranger who is my elder,
because I am willing to acknowledge that they've lived through more than I have
and may be able to teach me a thing or two;

but that doesn't mean that my respect is vouchsafed to them, under any circumstances.

(George W. Bush is my elder, after all!)

I've met 8 year old boys who showed more maturity, nerve, intelligence, honour, and accountability,
than some 60 year old men, that I know.

As far as my sister goes: 

I actually already decided years ago, that once I'm out of here, I'll have nothing to do with her;
but as long as I was living here, I was constantly put on the defensive,
and my policy was to be as friendly and diplomatic as I could

..."turning the other cheek" as it were. 

And you see what it got me?  Zilch.

So be it.  She gets no more courtesy or sensitivity from me.

I respect her legal rights....nothing more.

vas-y femme
or you might say
vous allez fille
or you might say
You go, girl

You don't have to come up with a big speech about how you're not going to take any more shit. Think about what you can do (short of homicide, of course) rather than what you can say to show them it won't be business as usual.

I'm going to have a talk with my parents, tonight, summarizing what the ramifications of all this will be.

But to my sister:  She is now cut out of my life.  I already said that to her.

I will not be open to any dialogue, whatsoever.

Just as you said to your abusive ex, when he promised it was going to stop:

I know it's going to stop.  Because I'm done giving you chances.

(October 16, 2015 at 1:43 pm)MTL Wrote:

(October 16, 2015 at 8:10 am)rexbeccarox Wrote: MTL, can I ask what your interactions with your sister are like? What's your fighting style? Do you yell and scream at each other?

I don't mind answering this question; it's an interesting query, actually.

First of all, fighting was always the last resort.

I tried really, really hard to bond with my sister...for decades;
returning kindness for her every unkindness;
"turning the other cheek" as it were.

But the nicer I was to her,
the more unkind she would become...

...so eventually, of course,
it would, occasionally build to a head and explode.

When we were teens, these confrontations involved screaming, name-calling, a bit of mutual shoving and slapping.

As adults, some screaming....but no physical contact....however, some actual debate was attempted

Since the birth of my nephew three years ago,
ALL handling of differences between my sister and I,
went through my mother; she acted as a go-between,
with zero actual confrontation between my sister and I.

(That system worked to my sister's advantage, so she wants that to continue,
because she knows how to manipulate and coerce my mother;

and because she knows that if I am allowed to speak,
that her manipulations will be exposed).

BUT MOST RECENTLY:
this big argument, this past weekend,
was actually the first of its kind:

She was completely and utterly unwilling to let me speak on my own behalf, at all.

(And I was taken completely off guard by this, in a way, because, I confess:

I was actually was expecting her to have grown up a bit;
I was expecting her to perhaps finally express recognition of all my efforts at kindness and diplomacy;

and perhaps even get a little acknowledgement and ownership of her past actions,
maybe even a commitment to mutual respect, in the future,
and some support of my ambitions).


See, in years past, she always opposed me....but she at least engaged with me.

...but I think NOW she realizes:
 
1.  I am too good at exposing her bullshit,

2.  That she has given me a wealth of bullshit to expose.

So her solution is also twofold:

1.  Create the PRIMARY illusion
...that anything I will say is going to be bullshit;

2.  Create the SECONDARY illusion
....that it is therefore intolerable to even consider the idea, that my words deserve the chance to even be uttered.

You need to kill your sister. Mentally, you need to treat her as if she does not exist. This game of not letting you speak will not work if you have nothing to say. If your mom tries to bring her into a conversation, don't give energy to it. Just nod politely as if she were talking about someone you used to know.

this will be a game changer. The worst think they will be able to say about you is that you left them talking to the wall. This probably won't win their love but it will take the wind out of their sails and allow you to devote energy to things that are important to you—like building a network of worthy, positive people.

(October 16, 2015 at 3:32 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(October 16, 2015 at 1:43 pm)MTL Wrote: I don't mind answering this question; it's an interesting query, actually.

First of all, fighting was always the last resort.

I tried really, really hard to bond with my sister...for decades;
returning kindness for her every unkindness;
"turning the other cheek" as it were.

But the nicer I was to her,
the more unkind she would become...

...so eventually, of course,
it would, occasionally build to a head and explode.

When we were teens, these confrontations involved screaming, name-calling, a bit of mutual shoving and slapping.

As adults, some screaming....but no physical contact....however, some actual debate was attempted

Since the birth of my nephew three years ago,
ALL handling of differences between my sister and I,
went through my mother; she acted as a go-between,
with zero actual confrontation between my sister and I.

(That system worked to my sister's advantage, so she wants that to continue,
because she knows how to manipulate and coerce my mother;

and because she knows that if I am allowed to speak,
that her manipulations will be exposed).

BUT MOST RECENTLY:
this big argument, this past weekend,
was actually the first of its kind:

She was completely and utterly unwilling to let me speak on my own behalf, at all.

(And I was taken completely off guard by this, in a way, because, I confess:

I was actually was expecting her to have grown up a bit;
I was expecting her to perhaps finally express recognition of all my efforts at kindness and diplomacy;

and perhaps even get a little acknowledgement and ownership of her past actions,
maybe even a commitment to mutual respect, in the future,
and some support of my ambitions).


See, in years past, she always opposed me....but she at least engaged with me.

...but I think NOW she realizes:
 
1.  I am too good at exposing her bullshit,

2.  That she has given me a wealth of bullshit to expose.

So her solution is also twofold:

1.  Create the PRIMARY illusion
...that anything I will say is going to be bullshit;

2.  Create the SECONDARY illusion
....that it is therefore intolerable to even consider the idea, that my words deserve the chance to even be uttered.

You need to kill your sister. Mentally, you need to treat her as if she does not exist. This game of not letting you speak will not work if you have nothing to say. If your mom tries to bring her into a conversation, don't give energy to it. Just nod politely as if she were talking about someone you used to know.

this will be a game changer. The worst think they will be able to say about you is that you left them talking  to the wall. This probably won't win their love but it will take the wind out of their sails and allow you to devote energy to things that are important to you—like building a network of worthy, positive people.

Yes, this new tactic of refusing to engage with me
stripped me of being able to use my logic, my articulation, my voice.

That's why the OP was about feeling so gutted.

And she knew what she was doing.

But you guys really helped me to think the issue through,
and as I say,

I've already (mentally) cut her out of my life.

And the beauty part is,

I am not to blame.  I was willing to dialogue.

SHE was the the axe-man....NOT ME.

All she sought to do was silence me,
but now she has LOST ME.

She will realize that she can't manipulate me by silencing me,
if I'm not there to manipulate.

And I can't be blamed for it.

How does this cutting out work if she is still talking to your mum as before?

(October 16, 2015 at 4:08 pm)Alex K Wrote: How does this cutting out work if she is still talking to your mum as before?

Well, I will be having an important conversation with my parents tonight about the shift in dynamics.

We shall see what my parents think about what I have to say.

In any event, even if the worst occurs and they capitulate to her entirely
(which I don't think will happen)
she is still cut out of my life.