(October 18, 2015 at 11:26 am)Aractus Wrote: Well it's a matter for legislators. You're never going to be able to force people to do things, and nor should you expect them to. But you can certainly legislate so that the decision can be taken out of the parents control where it is medically necessary for the treatment of a minor.

You can't be this clueless.  We're unlikely to legislate away something that people claim as their religious beliefs.  Our supreme court recently ruled in favor of religious hegemony, remember?  It isn't business for legislators, there isn't any business in it......for them.  Regardless, as you've just mentioned.....forcing people to do something is difficult, and shouldn't come with expectation.  So, rather than legislation...I prefer outreach and education.  

Things like;

"Hey asshole, you're killing that kid for jesus"

(October 18, 2015 at 12:12 pm)Mermaid Wrote: What does "too strong" even mean? Have you ever taken immunology? vaccinology? Do you understand how vaccines work? What exactly is problematic about the MMR vaccine? You can't take ANY vaccine when you're sick or otherwise immunocompromised. There's a very good biological reason for this, and it is most definitely not specific to MMR.

You mention whooping cough as a serious disease, this is ALSO on the rise because of the anti-vaccination movement.

Obviously it's not too strong not to be safe. However, it's too strong to make all parents feel comfortable with it, and that is just as important. Many parents do not like the MMR vaccine specifically. And even if the data shows that there's nothing wrong with it, that doesn't mean people aren't uniquely afraid of it. A parent isn't going to care what a medical journal says in comparison to their parental instincts and their own life experiences.

If the MMR vaccine was split and offered in a more attractive way to parents then the immunisation rate would increase so as to match the immunisation rates for other childhood immunisations. You can't just go around blaming healthcare consumers - at some point you have to look at they data and say "hey, the MMR vaccine has the lowest usage rate of all the important childhood vaccines, why don't we look to a way to fix this?"

Getting people to feel comfortable with healthcare services/delivery is just as important as providing it in the first place.

(October 18, 2015 at 4:42 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You can't be this clueless.  We're unlikely to legislate away something that people claim as their religious beliefs.  Our supreme court recently ruled in favor of religious hegemony, remember?  It isn't business for legislators, there isn't any business in it......for them.  Regardless, as you've just mentioned.....forcing people to do something is difficult, and shouldn't come with expectation.  So, rather than legislation...I prefer outreach and education.  

Things like;

"Hey asshole, you're killing that kid for jesus"

We aren't talking about people's rights to practise their religious beliefs, we're talking about the rights of minors to receive essential healthcare. Those are two different rights, and I don't think you should say that the former rights of the parents should erode the more important rights of the minor. Of course doctors would only want to use such powers as an absolute last resort.

Now if I'm not mistaken we do have a way in which that can happen here in Australia. If a parent is incapable of providing adequate care for their child their custody can be stripped and the child in placed under the Guardianship of the Minister. The Minister (or their department) can then direct (for example) medical attention to be taken for the child, and the parents can go argue in court in order to get the custody of their child back.

(October 18, 2015 at 5:16 pm)Aractus Wrote:

(October 18, 2015 at 12:12 pm)Mermaid Wrote: What does "too strong" even mean? Have you ever taken immunology? vaccinology? Do you understand how vaccines work? What exactly is problematic about the MMR vaccine? You can't take ANY vaccine when you're sick or otherwise immunocompromised. There's a very good biological reason for this, and it is most definitely not specific to MMR.

You mention whooping cough as a serious disease, this is ALSO on the rise because of the anti-vaccination movement.

Obviously it's not too strong not to be safe. However, it's too strong to make all parents feel comfortable with it, and that is just as important. Many parents do not like the MMR vaccine specifically. And even if the data shows that there's nothing wrong with it, that doesn't mean people aren't uniquely afraid of it. A parent isn't going to care what a medical journal says in comparison to their parental instincts and their own life experiences.

If the MMR vaccine was split and offered in a more attractive way to parents then the immunisation rate would increase so as to match the immunisation rates for other childhood immunisations. You can't just go around blaming healthcare consumers - at some point you have to look at they data and say "hey, the MMR vaccine has the lowest usage rate of all the important childhood vaccines, why don't we look to a way to fix this?"

Getting people to feel comfortable with healthcare services/delivery is just as important as providing it in the first place.

Again, what does "too strong" mean in context with a vaccine? If you split the vaccine, will that cause a diminished immune response to the inoculation? How do doses of a vaccine antigen get decided? Any idea? What exactly do you think people are afraid of? How do vaccines work, anyway? I am asking you specifically since you are making this argument.

There is a lot of pseudoscience and internet chatter (often complete lies) about MMR and thimerosal and autism. None of that makes the vaccine "too strong" or unsafe. It's not the vaccine. It's the people believing the false statements. People are NOT looking at the data, they are looking at the lies. If they were looking at the data, they would vaccinate their kids.

(October 17, 2015 at 12:50 pm)mh.brewer Wrote:

(October 17, 2015 at 9:16 am)alpha male Wrote: So it's likely that we have people here who should have received Gardasil, but haven't.

Why not?

HPV has a limited transmission profile where the other diseases vaccinated for do not. Gardasil is voluntary not state required. Just like flu vaccinations, adenovirus, herpes virus in adults, typhoid.......... are not required but voluntary. You're position/argument has little validity in this thread.

Vaccination requirement by state: http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/schoolsurv/schImmRqmt.asp

The thread hasn't been built solely on currently required vaccines. For example, TaraJo said, "I'd be more accepting of anti vaxers if not for the fact that they're putting everyone else's health at risk." Lack of Gardasil or some of the other vaccinations you note do put other people's health at risk. So, the point is valid for this thread.

Less than half of people get flu vaccinations, so guess what - most people are anti vaxxers. It's a matter of extent. 

I used to be an anti-vaxxer in my fundie years. That is until my son caught Pertussis from the child of another anti-vax fundie parent who thought exposure to viruses "made kids tough" and there was nothing sniffing some essential oils and popping Shaklee vitamins couldn't cure. I can't explain how scared I was for three fucking months. Doctors could do nothing, because Pertussis can only be treated in the beginning stage, but most parents mistake it for the common cold as the symptoms mimic one another. Three months of that seal bark cough keeping him up all night, miserable, crying, coughing so hard he would puke on himself. Three long and agonizing months of that whooping cough and then another two of him being congested with thick mucus.

After that I realized that all of these illnesses that children commonly spread among themselves, that anti-vaxxers claim just "toughen them up" are serious. They aren't just a little cough or a little stuffy nose and the Measles aren't just a little itchy rash. My husband caught Measles before the vaccine was available and he went blind for a week and now has a degenerative eye disease because of it. He's completely night blind. So I have a very personal reason for saying a big fuck off to anti-vaxxers who are convinced doctors are trying to kill us and that rubbing rosemary on your kid's feet will cure everything from head lice to Norovirus and that people who vaccinate are "raising pussies".

(October 20, 2015 at 9:47 pm)Jaxxie1181 Wrote: I used to be an anti-vaxxer in my fundie years. That is until my son caught Pertussis from the child of another anti-vax fundie parent who thought exposure to viruses "made kids tough" and there was nothing sniffing some essential oils and popping Shaklee vitamins couldn't cure. I can't explain how scared I was for three fucking months. Doctors could do nothing, because Pertussis can only be treated in the beginning stage, but most parents mistake it for the common cold as the symptoms mimic one another. Three months of that seal bark cough keeping him up all night, miserable, crying, coughing so hard he would puke on himself. Three long and agonizing months of that whooping cough and then another two of him being congested with thick mucus.

After that I realized that all of these illnesses that children commonly spread among themselves, that anti-vaxxers claim just "toughen them up" are serious. They aren't just a little cough or a little stuffy nose and the Measles aren't just a little itchy rash. My husband caught Measles before the vaccine was available and he went blind for a week and now has a degenerative eye disease because of it. He's completely night blind. So I have a very personal reason for saying a big fuck off to anti-vaxxers who are convinced doctors are trying to kill us and that rubbing rosemary on your kid's feet will cure everything from head lice to Norovirus and that people who vaccinate are "raising pussies".

First up, glad your son came through it, Jaxxie.
Also glad you joined our side.

The whole "toughen them up" argument only kinda works if the kids survive.

(October 19, 2015 at 8:03 am)Mermaid Wrote: Again, what does "too strong" mean in context with a vaccine? If you split the vaccine, will that cause a diminished immune response to the inoculation? How do doses of a vaccine antigen get decided? Any idea? What exactly do you think people are afraid of? How do vaccines work, anyway? I am asking you specifically since you are making this argument.

There is a lot of pseudoscience and internet chatter (often complete lies) about MMR and thimerosal and autism. None of that makes the vaccine "too strong" or unsafe. It's not the vaccine. It's the people believing the false statements. People are NOT looking at the data, they are looking at the lies. If they were looking at the data, they would vaccinate their kids.

The issue here is to listen to healthcare consumers. I'm not saying that the MMR vaccine is dangerous - I'm explaining that parents do not like it. Not because of irrational fears, but because of their experiences with it. It's not like other vaccines. The point is that they don't like the product - even people who use it don't like it. I've spoken in recent months to a number of parents who have specifically said that's the vaccine they don't like - but they never avoided it or didn't vaccinate. However healthcare data does show a lower number of vaccinations specifically for MMR compared with other vaccines, and there has to be a specific reason for this.

Here is a graph from data taken in 2003:



As you can clearly see, as I have mentioned repeatedly, those who actually opposed are a tiny minority of people who don't vaccinate. Remember this figure is just for the 15-20% or so of people who (in 2003) missed a vaccination (note that the majority have vaccinated their kids, but missed one or more vaccinations). So when people say "perceived no need" that is for the specific vaccination, and not perceived no need for vaccination itself. The people who are actually opposed may have a loud voice but they don't have a large effect. I've asked repeatedly for information showing me that opposition is a significant factor in the USA, and no one has provided me with any data that suggests it is.

If you want to look at ways of improving vaccination rates you are completely wasting your time focusing on the "Opposed" group who are tiny, tiny minority. By doing to you also make other feel threatened - people who missed a vaccination because they didn't know about it, or didn't realise the need. It's not their fault, and victim-blaming is wrong and toxic.

How it is offered is of vital importance. As I explained earlier, many Indigenous people will never accept healthcare delivery from non-Indigenous people, and there are many other people who would never accept healthcare products in a school or other setting that they do not perceive to be an appropriate place for health care products and services. People need to be given options that address their concerns. There are many atheists who wouldn't want to go to a church to have their child immunised, because they feel threatened by the setting.

(September 13, 2015 at 4:48 am)Aractus Wrote: \Well Parkers, the current predominant view of healthcare consumers in first world countries is one of an individualistic view.

Not here in America, apparently. A significant majority of American adults support mandatory vaccinations. Younger Americans are more likely to support optional vaccination, but still a majority favor mandatory vaccinations:

(October 20, 2015 at 11:26 pm)Aractus Wrote: I've asked repeatedly for information showing me that opposition is a significant factor in the USA, and no one has provided me with any data that suggests it is.

Go back and reread my post #57. There aren't hard data there in terms of population percentages, but there are several links demonstrating the cultural penetration of the antivax movement here in America.

Plugging your ears and ignoring information presented you is no way to carry on a discussion. If you're going to ignore what is presented to you, or worse yet pretend it hasn't been presented, that says more about you than it does about the issue under discussion.

Anti-vaxers are retards.