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RE: Christians - even the Bible says that Jesus was not God so why do you say he was ?
October 21, 2015 at 4:17 pm
(October 21, 2015 at 3:22 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: (October 21, 2015 at 3:10 pm)alpha male Wrote: What did Jesus mean by that claim?
54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your[m] God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [i]it and was glad.”[/i]
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” ( Gods name not his )
jesus was telling the jews you say He is your God but you do not know Him . I know Him (see jesus making a clear distinction between himself and God even here in this very sentence ?) jesus did not say before abraham was he existed as I AM . jesus said before abraham was , I AM ( which is the name of God ) ... so " before abraham was , God " before abraham existed God existed
It does have a lot to do with context, and what is being said. I am not a Koine Greek scholar, but I don't think that your interpretation works in the greek. It is also not just because of this one verse, to which the conclusion is reached. I have run into Christians; who have argued, (I believe incorrectly) that anytime the phrase "ego eimi" is used it is a reference to Exodus.
But those in that time and culture (those who spoke the language), understood Jesus claim to be worthy of stoning. It is not just saying, that before Abraham Jesus existed, but "I am". The phrase that was used in connection to the timelessness of God.
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RE: Christians - even the Bible says that Jesus was not God so why do you say he was ?
October 21, 2015 at 4:20 pm
(This post was last modified: October 21, 2015 at 4:33 pm by jenny1972.)
(October 21, 2015 at 4:04 pm)alpha male Wrote: (October 21, 2015 at 3:58 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: what do you mean come on ? jesus said " before abraham was ( before abraham existed ) , I AM " ( I AM is God ) so essentially he was saying ' before abraham there was God ' What I mean is obvious - your interpetation makes no sense in the context, i.e. coming right after:
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
in context means looking at the entire exchange between these jews not just that one question , how did jesus talk about God ( " He is my God " ...." i know Him " ) before that question was asked ? he obviously makes a distinction between himself and God and had never claimed to be God neither then or at any other time . The trinity concept did not begin with jesus it was invented by others .
(October 21, 2015 at 4:17 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (October 21, 2015 at 3:22 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: 54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your[m] God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [i]it and was glad.”[/i]
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” ( Gods name not his )
jesus was telling the jews you say He is your God but you do not know Him . I know Him (see jesus making a clear distinction between himself and God even here in this very sentence ?) jesus did not say before abraham was he existed as I AM . jesus said before abraham was , I AM ( which is the name of God ) ... so " before abraham was , God " before abraham existed God existed
It does have a lot to do with context, and what is being said. I am not a Koine Greek scholar, but I don't think that your interpretation works in the greek. It is also not just because of this one verse, to which the conclusion is reached. I have run into Christians; who have argued, (I believe incorrectly) that anytime the phrase "ego eimi" is used it is a reference to Exodus.
But those in that time and culture (those who spoke the language), understood Jesus claim to be worthy of stoning. It is not just saying, that before Abraham Jesus existed, but "I am". The phrase that was used in connection to the timelessness of God.
ok the jews who were questioning him what was their intention of questioning him ? what was their attitude toward jesus were their intentions good ? do you think they were looking for something that could be considered blasphemy ? (and if they were expecting a God - Messiah why would they see that as blasphemy anyways?)
Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today  Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you will join us And the world will be as one - John Lennon
The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also - Mark Twain
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RE:
October 21, 2015 at 9:14 pm
(October 21, 2015 at 4:20 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: in context means looking at the entire exchange between these jews not just that one question , how did jesus talk about God ( " He is my God " ...." i know Him " ) before that question was asked ? he obviously makes a distinction between himself and God and had never claimed to be God neither then or at any other time . The trinity concept did not begin with jesus it was invented by others . Cool - if you want to widen the context, let's back up to:
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."
Let's hear your spin on that!
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RE: Christians - even the Bible says that Jesus was not God so why do you say he was ?
October 21, 2015 at 9:46 pm
This all seems very interesting, convincing and totally fact-based, but does Spider-man REALLY do whatever a spider can?
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Christians - even the Bible says that Jesus was not God so why do you say he was ?
October 22, 2015 at 6:46 am
(October 21, 2015 at 9:14 pm)alpha male Wrote: (October 21, 2015 at 4:20 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: in context means looking at the entire exchange between these jews not just that one question , how did jesus talk about God ( " He is my God " ...." i know Him " ) before that question was asked ? he obviously makes a distinction between himself and God and had never claimed to be God neither then or at any other time . The trinity concept did not begin with jesus it was invented by others . Cool - if you want to widen the context, let's back up to:
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."
Let's hear your spin on that!
So, according to you, Jesus was literally saying he was from heaven and they were from hell? It's not metaphorical at all? Wow. Quite an interpretation.
Oooooooorrr, we could realize it's not a reference to being a God, but of being a transcendent being (an Enlightened One, so to speak), while the people to whom he was speaking were not, still trapped in their terrestrial thoughts. One of the numerous examples of Buddhist influence on the teachings of Rabbi Yeshua.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
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RE: Christians - even the Bible says that Jesus was not God so why do you say he was ?
October 22, 2015 at 8:52 am
(October 22, 2015 at 6:46 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: So, according to you, Jesus was literally saying he was from heaven Yes. See the beginning of the book. The author definitely sees Jesus as divine and preceding creation.
Quote:and they were from hell?
No - they're from "this world," as the quote says.
Quote:It's not metaphorical at all? Wow. Quite an interpretation.
Oooooooorrr, we could realize it's not a reference to being a God, but of being a transcendent being (an Enlightened One, so to speak), while the people to whom he was speaking were not, still trapped in their terrestrial thoughts. One of the numerous examples of Buddhist influence on the teachings of Rabbi Yeshua.
LOL - and you say I have quite an interpretation.
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RE: Christians - even the Bible says that Jesus was not God so why do you say he was ?
October 22, 2015 at 9:39 am
(October 22, 2015 at 8:52 am)alpha male Wrote: (October 22, 2015 at 6:46 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: So, according to you, Jesus was literally saying he was from heaven Yes. See the beginning of the book. The author definitely sees Jesus as divine and preceding creation.
Quote:and they were from hell?
No - they're from "this world," as the quote says.
Quote:It's not metaphorical at all? Wow. Quite an interpretation.
Oooooooorrr, we could realize it's not a reference to being a God, but of being a transcendent being (an Enlightened One, so to speak), while the people to whom he was speaking were not, still trapped in their terrestrial thoughts. One of the numerous examples of Buddhist influence on the teachings of Rabbi Yeshua.
LOL - and you say I have quite an interpretation.
Yeah, I just maaaaaaade that up. Douche. You're quoting from the Gospel of John, the non-synoptic gospel written nearly a century after his death (earliest possible is 60+ years later), in which he has been assigned magical abilities and divine nature not found in the earlier gospels.
And I am not remotely the first person to note that Jesus takes on Buddha-like qualities in the descriptions of his "divine nature"... the whole Trinitarian "Jesus = God" thing came later in church history; even though the view is almost ubiquitous, now, it was not always so. You're looking at it through rose-colored glasses.
If you'll take the glasses off and really LOOK, it's obvious that the writer of John is bridging the gap between the earlier, "mystical teacher of the path to enlightenment" (The Way) version of Jesus and the later, "I Am" version of Jesus-as-God.
http://www.letusreason.org/Cult13.htm
http://www.jesusisbuddha.com/thundy.html
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
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Hmmm?
October 22, 2015 at 9:46 am
...in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
(Mat 18:16, Num 35:30, Deu 17:6, Deu 19:15)
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RE: Christians - even the Bible says that Jesus was not God so why do you say he was ?
October 22, 2015 at 10:55 am
(October 22, 2015 at 9:39 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Yeah, I just maaaaaaade that up. Douche. You're quoting from the Gospel of John, the non-synoptic gospel written nearly a century after his death (earliest possible is 60+ years later), in which he has been assigned magical abilities and divine nature not found in the earlier gospels. 1. The OP quoted John, which of course makes it fair game. Note that I didn't go to Paul until OP opened that up.
2. Jesus was clearly portrayed as having miraculous powers in the synoptics.
3. The divine nature is found in the synoptics, it's just made more clearly in John.
Quote:And I am not remotely the first person to note that Jesus takes on Buddha-like qualities in the descriptions of his "divine nature"... the whole Trinitarian "Jesus = God" thing came later in church history; even though the view is almost ubiquitous, now, it was not always so. You're looking at it through rose-colored glasses.
Yes, and some people think Jesus was modeled after Bacchus, or Mithras, or Osiris...every few years the name changes, but the similarities when examined are underwhelming.
Quote:If you'll take the glasses off and really LOOK, it's obvious that the writer of John is bridging the gap between the earlier, "mystical teacher of the path to enlightenment" (The Way) version of Jesus and the later, "I Am" version of Jesus-as-God.
You're the one viewing it through a desired outcome. Jesus was much more than a "mystical teacher of the path to enlightenment" in the synoptics. He performed miracles, claimed to be the messiah, accepted worship, claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath, etc. He was not just a teacher.
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Hmmm?
October 22, 2015 at 11:56 am
(This post was last modified: October 22, 2015 at 12:00 pm by Hmmm?.)
(October 22, 2015 at 10:55 am)alpha male Wrote: You're the one viewing it through a desired outcome. Jesus was much more than a "mystical teacher of the path to enlightenment" in the synoptics. He performed miracles, claimed to be the messiah, accepted worship, claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath, etc. He was not just a teacher.
Who did he say was lord of the sabbath? (Mt 12:8, Mk 2:28, Lk 6:5)
...who's the son of man?
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