(October 30, 2015 at 11:52 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Except we're not talking about an explosion.

The big bang is not an explosion. It is a rapid expansion of the dimensions, from a point which contained all the energy in the universe, and some of that would become the matter in the universe, unevenly, so it clustered into nebulae, then stars and galaxies. In those nuclear furnaces was made the heavier elements that would be found in later star systems.

And it's not true that all complex things are made by intelligences. Only ones that violate normal laws of physics and chemistry. Evolution does not violate the normal laws of physics or chemistry. It operates by the standard laws of organic chemistry. When a person makes a watch (or any mechanical thing), they use techniques that go against the normal order of things-- for instance, they apply heat to get metal out of the oxidized ore (or other chemical combinations) that is the normal state of that material, and then apply force to shape it. Not natural.

why do you assume that the laws of physics and chemistry itself are not intelligently designed ?

Don't believe I've ever heard anyone assume that.  Still pitching straw, Jen.  Have at it...you'll only end up with a mountain of the shit. Are you suggesting that they are...and if so...would you, at any point..be willing to, oh, idk....

...make your case ?

(October 30, 2015 at 12:27 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(October 30, 2015 at 11:52 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: Except we're not talking about an explosion.

The big bang is not an explosion. It is a rapid expansion of the dimensions, from a point which contained all the energy in the universe, and some of that would become the matter in the universe, unevenly, so it clustered into nebulae, then stars and galaxies. In those nuclear furnaces was made the heavier elements that would be found in later star systems.

And it's not true that all complex things are made by intelligences. Only ones that violate normal laws of physics and chemistry. Evolution does not violate the normal laws of physics or chemistry. It operates by the standard laws of organic chemistry. When a person makes a watch (or any mechanical thing), they use techniques that go against the normal order of things-- for instance, they apply heat to get metal out of the oxidized ore (or other chemical combinations) that is the normal state of that material, and then apply force to shape it. Not natural.

why do you assume that the laws of physics and chemistry itself are not intelligently designed ?

Principle of parsimony.

Boru

(October 30, 2015 at 11:53 am)pool Wrote: Some sort of particles are needed for any sort of explosion
For the BB to occur particles would've needed
Some sort of particles facilitated BB
Particles existed before BB
If particles existed before then they followed the "This is how particles interact,period." rule.
"This is how particles interact, period." existed before the BB.

Simple logic

Too simple, it turns out. At the point of singularity, all the laws of physics break down. I suggest you go read up on Planck time.

(October 30, 2015 at 12:19 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Computers -all- have their own language, that is determined by their composition and arrangement.  It's called a machine language.  Higher level programming, what you think of as code, is just a way for human beings to communicate with the computer.  No matter how a computer is built..and even if one happened to form in the absence of our intervention (which is both possible and well evidenced) it would have a machine language..no need for us to supply that.

But why, would any of that matter?   OFC....you think that DNA is a code, written by a programmer.  It's not....if we're going to use the analogy of computers, for poetic effect, DNA is machine language.  If DNA had a different structure, it would have a different machine language.  It might have helped, before you made this comment, to know anything at all about computers or biology..and you're right..it doesn't take a masters in either.....

..so what's your excuse, Jen?

@Pool
Still pursuing ignorance for it's own sake, are we?

yes right if the DNA had a different structure it would be different . but it was created to have a certain distinct structure a certain DNA . chemicals and atoms also are made up of complex structures , you are assuming that chemistry and atoms just created themselves without intelligence . does our computers , an unthinking entity , do this write its own code decide for itself what it will be ?

(October 30, 2015 at 12:29 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(October 30, 2015 at 11:53 am)pool Wrote: Some sort of particles are needed for any sort of explosion
For the BB to occur particles would've needed
Some sort of particles facilitated BB
Particles existed before BB
If particles existed before then they followed the "This is how particles interact,period." rule.
"This is how particles interact, period." existed before the BB.

Simple logic

Too simple, it turns out.  At the point of singularity, all the laws of physics break down.  I suggest you go read up on Planck time.

Planck time - Done.

(October 30, 2015 at 12:34 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: yes right if the DNA had a different structure it would be different .

-and so the machine language would be different.  All of your comparisons to code...out the window, right there.  Understand that, acknowledge that.  

Quote:but it was created to have a certain distinct structure a certain DNA .

This is precisely what must be demonstrated.....you are assuming your conclusion, which is not valid logic.  You have no reason to trust your conclusion.

Quote:chemicals and atoms also are made up of complex structures , you are assuming that chemistry and atoms just created themselves without intelligence .

Nope..and you've been corrected on this..at length, you even apologized a few pages ago for doing precisely this.  Was your apology as insincere as your reasons for belief?

Quote:does our computers , an unthinking entity , do this write its own code decide for itself what it will be ?

Yet more straw.  Respond to me...when you respond to me...for change.  I understand that you're having difficulty figuring out how to do that...but there -are- people trying to help you. How long will you persist in this, btw....how many times will you repeat the same error? Is your entire belief in ID founded upon this error? Is there no way for you to argue ID without making this error? Doesn't that concern you?

(October 30, 2015 at 12:19 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Computers -all- have their own language, that is determined by their composition and arrangement.  It's called a machine language.  Higher level programming, what you think of as code, is just a way for human beings to communicate with the computer.  No matter how a computer is built..and even if one happened to form in the absence of our intervention (which is both possible and well evidenced) it would have a machine language..no need for us to supply that.

But why, would any of that matter?   OFC....you think that DNA is a code, written by a programmer.  It's not....if we're going to use the analogy of computers, for poetic effect, DNA is machine language.  If DNA had a different structure, it would have a different machine language.  It might have helped, before you made this comment, to know anything at all about computers or biology..and you're right..it doesn't take a masters in either.....

..so what's your excuse, Jen?

@Pool
Still pursuing ignorance for it's own sake, are we?

oh really a computer developed by itself without human intervention when did that happen ?

All the time..look around you.  How is it, do you think...that plants can follow the sun as it moves overhead? I'm sensing another argument from incredulity in your future. Surely you don't think that the same fairies that paint dew on the petals are hauling the leaves around with chains?

(October 30, 2015 at 12:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(October 30, 2015 at 12:22 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: i think its pointless to say that unintelligent objects create DNA a very complex specific  design

If you think that facts are pointless..I don't see how you're going to climb up out of the hole you've dug for yourself.

so you believe its a fact that unintelligent creations determine their own DNA then why dont they change their DNA and become something completely different . when is the bird outside my window going to decide to become a turtle?