Drich is funny. Comparing us to a Pokemon team and thinking he's like King David fighting Goliath and shit.

(November 2, 2015 at 2:34 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(November 2, 2015 at 2:16 pm)Drich Wrote: wow, it's intresting that you assume the error here is mine.

Yes I see they are worshiping other Gods out of ignorance. Do you see that in Acts that Paul says because of this ignorance they were not deemed evil by God? He simply points out that now they have no excuse and they have been called to repent.

This is in stark contrast to the people Paul describes in Romans 1.

The People in sin of Act's 17 were in sin (worshiping idols) because they did not know any better. They were trying to worship/do right by God. they just did not know Him.

The people of Romans1 embraced their sin which is what made them evil. for them God found fault and turned them over to their evil desires. God wants no part of them.

Your 'expert' wrongly assumes that Acts 17 and Romans 1 describes the same group of people, when clearly it does not. the contrast between acts 17 and romans 1 is describing two different groups of people, (One sinning out of ignorance, but trying to do the right thing. the other willfully and loving embracing their sin which makes them Evil before God) because your 'expert' wrongly assumes that both groups are 'pagan' and therefore share a label of 'evil' before God. both acts 17 and Romans 1 should say the same thing essentally, IF Paul was indeed the author of both. Again not the case.

But, Because your super smart guy (way smarter than drich who cant even spell right) does not understand the nuances between a heart wanting to serve God but trapped in sin/ignorance, and a heart who embraces and loves his sin and hates God for forbidding their sin. your super smart 'expert' fails to see the reasoning for the differences Paul would have to put between the group of Acts 17 and the group of men in Romans 1.

Do you see now?

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

It isn't about a different group. You're adding to the text, Drich.

Or are you saying that despite what Paul said in Romans 1:20, there are people who still worshiped other gods out of ignorance and did not know of the true God?

Can't twist your way out of this one, Drich. You're not interacting with someone you can play these games with.

can you Not see you have to OMIT Context to come up with your conclusion? That your whole arguement will not allow you to honestly quote a complete verse? that you have to subdivide a verse and 'cherry pick' (Logical fallacy) only 1/2 of the verse because the other 1/2 destroys the point your trying to make?

How low in your intellectual dishonestly are you willing to go to try and save your 'experts' work? To willing omit contextual/consecutive passages because they refute your position is beyond just logical fallacy. You are lying about what a reference says, inorder to build your arguement. If you have to lie about what the bible says inorder to proove the bible wrong, then maybe, just maybe it's not the bible who is wrong.

The Uneddited version of Verse 20: There are things about God that people cannot see—his eternal power and all that makes him God. But since the beginning of the world, those things have been easy for people to understand. They are made clear in what God has made. So people have no excuse for the evil they do.

Again, the people identified in Acts 17 were not identified as evil. They according to Paul were ignorant of their sin. (They were trying to live right, they just did not know about God Which should answer another question/What if someone never heard of God/Jesus will they goto Hell)

Back to Romans 1 the people there have been identified as evil because they are aware of their sin,/violation of the moral law and embrace it. They are not at all like the people of acts 17 because the Acts people are worshiping what they know of God and doing their best to follow the moral law God puts into all of us as Romans 20 forward describes, they were just focused on the wrong idea of God. (which was excused by Paul as ignorance in OT times) Meanwhile the Evil people of Romans 1 ignore this calling to do right and embrace their sin (which can be anything or any combination of things on the list Paul drops in the rest of the chapter.) This embrace or love of sin is what God identifies as Evil. That is why you ommitted the last sentence. Because it changes the whole meaning of the verse from "people" meaning everyone to just the people who practice Evil.

As I told the other 1/2 of team rocket already we know Paul is not talking about 'all people' here because of what I just said, plus in chapter two he identifies another group of people. Those who do not do evil, they just sin. sin and evil according to Paul is not the same thing. Sin is involuntary. the people of acts 17 sinned out of ignorance, while the people of romans 1 identifed their sin, embraced and loved their sin which made them evil. God has no patients for evil people is what Romans 1 is telling us.

That means your 'expert' no matter how held up in your community, is an idiot, and everyone who follows this emperor with no cloths is also a fool.

(November 3, 2015 at 2:16 am)Irrational Wrote: Drich is funny. Comparing us to a Pokemon team and thinking he's like Kings David fighting Goliath and shit.

Fixed that for you. There is virtue in brevity.

Drich Wrote:The Uneddited version of Verse 20: There are things about God that people cannot see—his eternal power and all that makes him God. But since the beginning of the world, those things have been easy for people to understand. They are made clear in what God has made. So people have no excuse for the evil they do.

No excuse huh?

Yeah other than the Bible being poorly written, massively ambiguous, full of horror, violence, rape and contradictions and having no evidence to back up it's claim and just expecting everyone to "trust" it's a magic book.

Oh and other than the fact that what the Bible defines as "evil" and "sin" is often not evil at all...

Oh and other than the fact some people die before ever having even a chance to read the Bible...

...oh and other than the fact many people lived and died before the Bible was even written...

So other than that, yeah, no excuse.

(November 3, 2015 at 9:58 am)Drich Wrote: That means your 'expert' no matter how held up in your community, is an idiot, and everyone who follows this emperor with no cloths is also a fool.

I sense a lot of butthurt here You need a hug or something?

Reread Romans 1:20 again, and practice what you preach (following the context, that is). Does the verse not say it is clear to all that God is true? Yes or no?

(November 3, 2015 at 10:04 am)Chuck Wrote:

(November 3, 2015 at 2:16 am)Irrational Wrote: Drich is funny. Comparing us to a Pokemon team and thinking he's like Kings David fighting Goliath and shit.

Fixed that for you.   There is virtue in brevity.

My problem is I can be a bit too wordy.

(November 2, 2015 at 1:43 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: I think we're talking past one another here, as I'm saying that Paul sees everyone as flawed with a sin-nature to do evil acts, but that Christians behave differently (or try to) despite those flaws because they are saved. Paul is clearly saying that all humanity has that tendency and thus behaves that way, including Christians, but that a saved Christian will avoid such behaviors through grace and repentance. Keep in mind that Paul said, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Timothy 1:15)

Actually no.

Paul is saying those who embrace sin are evil

Those who sin but hate their sin, or are ignorant of it can be saved.

The people in Acts 17 were examples of sinners.

The people of Romans 1 are identified as evil.

The people of romans 2 are just sinners.

I am not trying to talk past you, I am bring you something new you feel you already know but appearently dont.

If we can be allowed to get past all of this, the book of Romans makes a big deal between sinners and evil people. It also tells us God does not expect us to ever stop sinning in this life. We just cant embrace or love our sin, because that would make us evil. God has no room for evil people.

Quote:Edit to Add: I realize I'm not being specific enough. Your arguments that Paul is referring to two separate groups seems at odds with his perspective on the nature of being a sinner, and why Christians should behave differently, if they are saved. I think your line between "evildoers" and "sinners" is arbitrary and unsubstantiated, and he is not "clearly" referring to two different groups, there. It is part of a single thought; as you like to point out, the chapter-and-verse numbers we have were not in the originals. So I'm not sure why you're objecting to Ehrman's analysis of Paul's philosophy, since it seems to me that you're objecting to something that's not really there unless we squint and look at it sideways, and the vast majority of Christians see all humans as evil, sin as the practice of evil (that which is against God, the ultimate source of good), and all Christians as sinners-who-have-repented.

The word in Romans 1 for evil is:
κακός kakós, kak-os'; apparently a primary word; worthless (intrinsically, such; whereas G4190 properly refers to effects), i.e. (subjectively) depraved, or (objectively) injurious:—bad, evil, harm, ill, noisome, wicked.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...2556&t=KJV

This evil is paired with this word:
ἀδικία adikía, ad-ee-kee'-ah; from G94; (legal) injustice (properly, the quality, by implication, the act); morally, wrongfulness (of character, life or act):—iniquity, unjust, unrighteousness, wrong.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...=G93&t=KJV
These two words describe "Evil men" or unrighteous men of Romans 1.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/rom/1/1/s_1047018

Verse the words describing the sin of Romans 2:
ἁμαρτάνω hamartánō, ham-ar-tan'-o; perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly, to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e. (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin:—for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...264&t=NASB

Their is a vast difference between one who 'tresspassed, has faults, miss the mark, or offends.' Verse those who are iniquitious, unjust, injurious:—bad, evil, wicked.

List 1, the sin list. One does not have to even be aware that he is in sin, or maybe in a position where that person is not in control of sin. (as per our discussion on gay people) and yet can still be in sin. This describes the people of romans 2

List or defination 2 describes someone or a group who embrace or want to do harm/sin for whatever reason. this is the people of Romans 1

So the people of Romans 2 AND Acts 17 belong to the sin group. They were either ignorant of their sin or were "slaves to sin" (per paul in romans 7) They get a different treatment from God if they repent, than those of Romans 1. the evil people/People who justify, embrace and love their sin.

(November 3, 2015 at 10:36 am)Irrational Wrote:

(November 3, 2015 at 9:58 am)Drich Wrote: That means your 'expert' no matter how held up in your community, is an idiot, and everyone who follows this emperor with no cloths is also a fool.

I sense a lot of butthurt here You need a hug or something?

Reread Romans 1:20 again, and practice what you preach (following the context, that is). Does the verse not say it is clear to all that God is true? Yes or no?

20 There are things about God that people cannot see—his eternal power and all that makes him God. But since the beginning of the world, those things have been easy for people to understand. They are made clear in what God has made. So people have no excuse for the evil they do.

Not everyone practices EVIL Sport, ONLY EVIL PEOPLE.

Their is a vast difference between sin and evil.

you are usally about 4 posts behind Rocket, so why don't you save us both some time and read what i write him.
Just FYI that is why I call you two team rocket. "the smart one" comes up with a plan or idea/point of attack, fails, and the... "second one"(who is 4 posts behind) at his best, comes up with the same plan or idea expecting it to work...

What's funny is that you cant see this play out.

So we ready for romans 4?

I think I'll start a new thread for that one. since we are 30+ pages in and still discussing Chapter 1 and 2.

(November 3, 2015 at 11:02 am)Drich Wrote:

(November 3, 2015 at 10:36 am)Irrational Wrote: I sense a lot of butthurt here You need a hug or something?

Reread Romans 1:20 again, and practice what you preach (following the context, that is). Does the verse not say it is clear to all that God is true? Yes or no?

20 There are things about God that people cannot see—his eternal power and all that makes him God. But since the beginning of the world, those things have been easy for people to understand. They are made clear in what God has made. So people have no excuse for the evil they do.

Not everyone practices EVIL Sport, ONLY EVIL PEOPLE.

Their is a vast difference between sin and evil.

you are usally about 4 posts behind Rocket, so why don't you save us both some time and read what i write him.
Just FYI that is why I call you two team rocket. "the smart one" comes up with a plan or idea/point of attack, fails, and the... "second one"(who is 4 posts behind) at his best, comes up with the same plan or idea expecting it to work...

What's funny is that you cant see this play out.

Dude, I'm the one who started the discussion with you, hello? And I asked you a question just now which you didn't answer.

So does everyone know of the existence of God (including the Athenians in Acts 17)? Yes or no? Leave aside that "evil" different from "sin" red herring for a minute and answer the question.