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Evangelicals, Trump and a Quick Bible Study
#1
Evangelicals, Trump and a Quick Bible Study
I'm going to be quick to the point: the things that seem to be of supreme importance to the Evangelicals were neither important to Jesus nor his father, Yahweh. Also, things that were important to Jesus do not seem to be important to the Evangelicals. 


Jesus never discussed the issue of abortion and the Old Testament makes it clear that abortion is not something that Yahweh disapproves of.

Exodus 21:22-25 Tells us that hitting a woman and causing her to miscarry (a natural abortion) is punishable with a fine while murder is punishable by death.

Numbers 5:13-31 Tells us what a husband should do if he suspects his wife is pregnant with another man's child. He should take her to the priest who will gather dust from the tabernacle and mix it with water. She must drink this concoction. If she miscarries, it means she was unfaithful. Now, I'm not a doctor and can't testify as to the health risks of a pregnant woman drinking dirt-water, if that actually could cause a miscarriage, but the message of these verses are clear. The priest is potentially performing a metaphysical abortion on her without her choice being involved.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 Makes it clear that even post-birth children have no rights. The father can have one stoned to death in the public square just by announcing that his son is rebellious.

The only verse the pro-lifers can manage to find is a passage in Jeremiah 1:5 which is wrenched out of context. "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you" which speaks of Yahweh's ability to see into the future, that Jeremiah would be successfully born and grow up to be a prophet.

Do Evangelicals still fret anymore about marriage being between "one man and one woman" or have they come to finally accept gay marriage?
In case it's still an issue for them, "one man and one woman" appears nowhere in the Bible. In fact, the Old Testament is filled to the brim with examples of the prophets taking multiple wives, along with some "concubines" on the side. If Yahweh valued a strictly monogamous marriage, clearly his "chosen people" never got the memo.

1Kings 15:5 tells us that King David did not sin in the eyes of Yahweh except for the matter with Uriah and his wife. The number of wives that David has is never calculated in the Bible but it was more than several. Apparently, Yahweh had no problem with David having multiple wives. He also apparently had a gay relationship with Johnathan but that's a matter of interpretation.

Deuteronomy 21:15-17 tells us how to treat the children of multiple wives in case one is "beloved" and the other "hated". This is a divine regulation of the practice of polygamy. Such regulation is a tacit endorsement of the practice, since Yahweh could have just as easily written "don't do this".

Jesus never said anything about either abortion or gay rights. He did, however, spend a lot of time talking about the things that liberals like. He denounced greed. He instructed us to care for the poor and unfortunate. He healed the sick. He preached a message of peace.

In sum, the Evangelicals either need to reevaluate their priorities or find another religion. This Jesus they claim to follow was a socialist hippy.

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#2
RE: Evangelicals, Trump and a Quick Bible Study
Evangelicals love Trump because they love paranoid conspiracy theories. And what is Christian theology if not a cosmic conspiracy theory about evil forces trying to defeat God?
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#3
RE: Evangelicals, Trump and a Quick Bible Study
Where are these pro lifers now when forced sterilization is being done in ICE facilities on immigrants so that they can't reproduce?

Quote:Staggering Number of Hysterectomies Happening at ICE Facility, Whistleblower Says

"We’ve questioned among ourselves, like, goodness, he's taking everybody’s stuff out," said a former nurse at the facility. "That's his specialty, he’s the uterus collector."

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/93578...blower-say
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#4
RE: Evangelicals, Trump and a Quick Bible Study
(September 14, 2020 at 11:22 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: things that were important to Jesus do not seem to be important to the Evangelicals. 
I think you're exactly right. Trump-supporting American Christians are about as far away from Christ's words as it's possible to get. 

In fact I suspect it's possible to read the whole of Christian history as a tension between this worldly, selfish, money-hungry version and a red-letter version that does pretty much the opposite. (With variations according to the era, of course.) In the Middle Ages, for example, there were already strong antinomian movements that called the established church worldly and corrupt. St. Francis thought he was returning to origins. Luther thought he was doing the same. We can argue in each instance whether the reformer was really doing things Christ's way, but at the time they seemed to think so. 

There was a particularly vigorous anti-establishment movement in Britain around the time of Cromwell. The Diggers, Levelers, Ranters, etc., were preaching communism, anti-royalism, and in some cases free love. They saw rank and file Anglicans in the way that you and I see modern US Evangelicals. (And I suspect they were largely right.) When the monarchy came back they mostly went underground, but survived a long time in semi-secret. 

One of the frustrating things on this forum is that people often write about Christianity -- or even all of religion -- as if it was only one thing. But the fiercest criticism of hypocritical establishment Christians has come from within Christianity. Sad to say, there are probably more Falwells around today, but there were also Thomas Mertons and William Sloane Coffins. And Abiezer Coppes and William Blakes.
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#5
RE: Evangelicals, Trump and a Quick Bible Study
We only imagine that trumpism is a deviation from christianity because we enjoy a funny little myth of what christianity is and was, sold by christians as self aggrandizement.

Christians went all in on trump, and if we let them, they'll pretend to have never supported any of it when it's all over. Rinse and repeat ad infinitum. They've been doing this for longer than there has been a united states. In fairness, it's not just christians. That seems to be the dynamic with any religion in governance. When in power they abuse, when out of favor they call for reconciliation and understanding.

The idea that jesus was a hippy or a socialist is just as much propaganda as the idea that there was anything nice about the character. It's an attempt to trade off jesus as currency, for socialism. In reality, the character makes a poor spokesman for any contemporary form of western government.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#6
RE: Evangelicals, Trump and a Quick Bible Study
^There is and always has been a massive disconnect between what Christians believe and what they’d like people to think they believe. This is why I’ve never had a problem with cherry-picking Christians. There actually are some good things in Christianity (though they’re neither unique nor original) - things like ‘love your neighbor’ and ‘help the poor’. The more Christians selectively embrace these and dump the vile, hateful crap that makes up 90% of the NT, the easier they are to get along with.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#7
RE: Evangelicals, Trump and a Quick Bible Study
The vile hateful crap is what differentiates them, unfortunately. They can't dump it and still be christians, they'd just be people who thought you should take your neighbor a pie every once in awhile and throw a few cans of soup at the local pantry.

The bad shit in christian belief is not a bug, it's The feature.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#8
RE: Evangelicals, Trump and a Quick Bible Study
(September 15, 2020 at 5:57 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The vile hateful crap is what differentiates them, unfortunately.  They can't dump it and still be christians, they'd just be people who thought you should take your neighbor a pie every once in awhile and throw a few cans of soup at the local pantry.

The bad shit in christian belief is not a bug, it's The feature.

*shrug*  If someone decides it's better to be nice to other people than the converse and wants to call themselves a Christian, I won't quibble. I don't even much care if they decide to act this way because they think Jesus told them to or because they believe they got messages from the planet Kwflzrk.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#9
RE: Evangelicals, Trump and a Quick Bible Study
Ah, but you do..because christians do claim that jesus told them to be groovy - jesus told them other things as well.

We can all sing kumbayah when the strange fanatic tells us that his fairy friend told him something we like. Certifying that, however, we can't really be surprised or upset when they do some terrible fucking thing for the same reason we were just okay with. The catholic church in ireland being a great example of this.

We don't like to confront these things, and we make poor deals with a revolving cast of devils, because confronting them is equally horrendous to our tolerant worldview. We worry that if we follow our convictions to their necessary end we might end up doing or thinking something bad. This is a weakness of the tolerant worldview, for all of it's strengths. It's also why we give our evangelicals here in the states an inexhaustible token for resets. A suicide pact with a death cult on account of how we enjoy the melody of whatever they happen to be whistling in our presence at a given moment.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#10
RE: Evangelicals, Trump and a Quick Bible Study
(September 14, 2020 at 11:22 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: I'm going to be quick to the point: the things that seem to be of supreme importance to the Evangelicals were neither important to Jesus nor his father, Yahweh. Also, things that were important to Jesus do not seem to be important to the Evangelicals. 


Jesus never discussed the issue of abortion and the Old Testament makes it clear that abortion is not something that Yahweh disapproves of.
well he said murder is wrong... and the whole treat others the way you want to be treated: Ie, don't murder/abort someone if you yourself do not want to be murdered aborted. so there is that. Plus you guys look for rules like the ot lays out rules. christ only gave two saying his new rule set was the completion of the law. meaning the whole law was represented by two rules not so that means everything is filtered through love God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself.
Quote:Exodus 21:22-25 Tells us that hitting a woman and causing her to miscarry (a natural abortion) is punishable with a fine while murder is punishable by death.
again new testament new law. don't murder a baby unless you want to be murdered.
Quote:Numbers 5:13-31 Tells us what a husband should do if he suspects his wife is pregnant with another man's child. He should take her to the priest who will gather dust from the tabernacle and mix it with water. She must drink this concoction. If she miscarries, it means she was unfaithful. Now, I'm not a doctor and can't testify as to the health risks of a pregnant woman drinking dirt-water, if that actually could cause a miscarriage, but the message of these verses are clear. The priest is potentially performing a metaphysical abortion on her without her choice being involved.
again you are looking for a completely different religion to spell out rules like the ot jews had. christ completed the law giving us a new law which only contain two rules that represented what one should do when confronted with any part of the old law. you only have these problems of understanding because you pretend/do not truly understand there are two different religions being represented here.
Quote:Deuteronomy 21:18-21 Makes it clear that even post-birth children have no rights. The father can have one stoned to death in the public square just by announcing that his son is rebellious.
two which christ countered he who is without sin cast the first stone..
Again treat others as you want to be treated covers all of this.
Quote:The only verse the pro-lifers can manage to find is a passage in Jeremiah 1:5 which is wrenched out of context. "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you" which speaks of Yahweh's ability to see into the future, that Jeremiah would be successfully born and grow up to be a prophet.

Do Evangelicals still fret anymore about marriage being between "one man and one woman" or have they come to finally accept gay marriage?
sanctified marriage is the key.. sanctified meaning you make an oath before God, and he approves. God only approves a marriage union between man and woman. there are no other examples of sanctified marriage.
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/sanctified that mean gay marriage is a function of man and not an oath gay people have an option to take before God. sorry but homosexual sex is still a sin. as all sex outside a sanctified marriage is. even the thought of it according to christ.
Quote:In case it's still an issue for them, "one man and one woman" appears nowhere in the Bible. In fact, the Old Testament is filled to the brim with examples of the prophets taking multiple wives, along with some "concubines" on the side. If Yahweh valued a strictly monogamous marriage, clearly his "chosen people" never got the memo.
1/2 truth= whole liar. man and woman appears in the bible as being the only case for a marriage god approves.
Quote:1Kings 15:5 tells us that King David did not sin in the eyes of Yahweh except for the matter with Uriah and his wife. The number of wives that David has is never calculated in the Bible but it was more than several. Apparently, Yahweh had no problem with David having multiple wives. He also apparently had a gay relationship with Johnathan but that's a matter of interpretation.
apples and oranges/misdirection/red herring. because the subject matter is homosexual marriage, not number of spouses. to which despite the number of women david was married to at one time the only relevant point to this discussion of gay marriage is all his partners were born female.. Hence sanctified marriage.
Quote:Deuteronomy 21:15-17 tells us how to treat the children of multiple wives in case one is "beloved" and the other "hated". This is a divine regulation of the practice of polygamy. Such regulation is a tacit endorsement of the practice, since Yahweh could have just as easily written "don't do this".
the world needed men who could afford to have as many children as possible in that time because high child mortality rate and the majority of the population could not afford to have children at all meaning the literally would starve to death... there was no government welfare programs. either you could afford to have a wife and a child or you couldn't in the cases of very wealthy men and kings they could afford to have many by many different women, which is why man kind today enjoys being on top of the food chain. one had to have children to work the fields keep the animals process and cook food even as a personal guard/army. try and imagine a post apocalyptic world where people had to do whatever they could to survive.. where the rules and morals of today was a death sentence. now place that mad max environment in the past where and when these men lived. if you can do that all your B/S morality questions get answered. this was a time where man's survival or even prominence as the alpha creature on the planet was in question, and then roll in starvation disease and the harshest living environments.. this answers why a man would want/need as many wives and children he could afford. and why he would pick favorites... because he did not live the sedentary life you do. because he could not afford your morality, because he could not risk survival of his whole clan on stupid principles people who live so disconnected from the way he lived they can not even imagine a time where his choices were for the good of the species...
Quote:Jesus never said anything about either abortion or gay rights. He did, however, spend a lot of time talking about the things that liberals like. He denounced greed. He instructed us to care for the poor and unfortunate. He healed the sick. He preached a message of peace.
again person with very poor observational skills, jesus never gave any specific rules outside the two. gay sex falls under love God as God has made a rule about all sex only being valid in a sanctified marriage, abortion falls under do not murder, and treat others as you would like to be treated.
Quote:In sum, the Evangelicals either need to reevaluate their priorities or find another religion. This Jesus they claim to follow was a socialist hippy.
i think you need to pull the B/S out of your own eye/what is keeping you from seeing the obvious truth, before you worry about the evangelicals.
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