(November 5, 2015 at 2:04 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: yes im sure if you work really really hard you can interpret any inconsistency in the bible and convince yourself that theres no contradiction well everyone else can see the obvious contradictions between what jesus said about salvation and what paul said about salvation you are just willfully blind to the contradictions because to dont want to admit to yourself it doesnt add up and its contradictory - its a defense mechanism called denial you have a lot invested in this ( oh and notice that jesus called himself "son of man" ?) thats another think different about paul and jesus . jesus saw himself as a fully human messiah an heir of king David and paul seen jesus as divine im sure jesus would have disagreed very much with that idea .

It's not work, it's simple honest, and contextual reading. Look at all the effort you put in, and look at what I did to refute your claim You pulled verse fragments for 10+ sources. Meaning you took and edited 10 different sources to make the bible contradict itself. all I did was take just 2 or 3 of those verses and contextually reframe what was written, and everything you said was shown to be false/lie. Work is what you do. You have to work to read and compile the verse fragments, you have to work to edit all of that together, you have to work to convince yourself that 1/2 a verse here married to 1/2 a verse from ANOTHER BOOK is what the author intended to say even though a honest and complete reading proves you wrong, and you have to work to maintain the lie for all your friends.

All I had to do is take just 2 of your verse fragments and zoom out a few more verses so anyone wanting the truth could read it for themselves.

Quote:mat 19:27 Peter said to him, “We left everything we had and followed you. So what will we have?”
28 Jesus said to them, “When the time of the new world comes, the Son of Man will sit on his great and glorious throne. And I can promise that you who followed me will sit on twelve thrones, and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or farms to follow me will get much more than they left. And they will have eternal life. 30 Many people who are first now will be last in the future. And many who are last now will be first in the future.

Quote:so to have eternal life we have to leave houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children, or farms to follow jesus ? thats not what paul said ,paul said you just have to have faith in jesus dont have to do anything at all no farm selling  or anything else . jesus said follow the law actually jesus told different things to different people about how to earn salvation

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Read it again... Peter asked Jesus What do 'WE' Meaning the 12 Deciples Get for leaving everything? Jesus answers "You (meaning the 12 -judas) Get to be considered Heaven's Top residences!" Peter is not asking how to get to heaven.

Quote:On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'""You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

Because Again, before Jesus died that is how it was done. when Jesus was ask, He had not died and returned. The "New Covenant" does not start with the New Testament. It starts with Acts 2. It starts with the out pouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of pentacost.

Quote:Is that true? If you do this, will you have eternal life? Actually it is not true. In Luke 18:18-22 Jesus says:

A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'""All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

The answers in Luke 10 and Luke 18 are totally different.

Again the two greatest commands "Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself" embody the whole law. If you can do those two things in OT times you completed everything you needed to do at that time.

Luke 18 is a violation of Love your neighbor as yourself. How do you not see that? If a man can store up things like the rich young ruler did, then to love your neighbor as yourself means you need to be willing to give to your neighbor as yourself. When the young man refused to sell his stuff and give it away he was shown to be lacking in 1/2 the law!!! Which means He did not keep the commands he thought he had kept. Jesus by asking Him to sell everything showed him the true meaning of those commands he cursory kept.

Quote:Then in John 6:53-58 we find an additional requirement:

   Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

it totally contradicts what Jesus just told the two guys in Luke 10 and Luke 18. And what about Matthew 18:2-3 ?

What are you talking about? This is all Love your Lord God with all you being stuff... Oh, wait your out of context again. start reading at verse 47 “I can assure you that anyone who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread that gives life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna God gave them in the desert, but it didn’t keep them from dying. 50 Here is the bread that comes down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will never die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my body. I will give my body so that the people in the world can have life.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue among themselves. They said, “How can this man give us his body to eat?”

53 Jesus said, “Believe me when I say that you must eat the body of the Son of Man, and you must drink his blood. If you don’t do this, you have no real life. 54 Those who eat my body and drink my blood have eternal life. I will raise them up on the last day. 55 My body is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my body and drink my blood live in me, and I live in them.

Verse 47 Being another nail in the coffin of your use of the word 'belief' because Here is 47 Jesus mirrors word for word what Paul has said in Romans, yet still says 'belief' is still tied to the works found in the following verses!

back on point, Clearly Jesus is using metaphor. He is using the idea of bread to feed and nourish a body. His bread/flesh/works will nourish the soul and give it eternal life. Jesus starting at verse 27-59 is starting to lay the foundations of the 'New covenant' you say does not exist. to his followers. verse 60 tells us why He is cloaking the new covenant in metaphor.
(It was all too hard for his followers to understand so a bunch left.)

 

Quote: He called a little child and had him stand among them. And [Jesus] said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

But is it true? If you "become like little children", do you get to go to heaven?

Context Context context!!!  In Mat 18 About that time the followers came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in God’s kingdom?”2 Jesus called a little child to come to him. He stood the child in front of the followers. 3 Then he said, “The truth is, you must change your thinking and become like little children. If you don’t do this, you will never enter God’s kingdom. 4 The greatest person in God’s kingdom is the one who makes himself humble like this child.

This is another Love your neighbor as yourself lesson!

How does the chapter start? His followers come to him jockeying for position in Heaven, they were wanting to see who would be over the others... Jesus uses the child to illustrate to them the selflessness needed to even enter. when called the child did not ask what's in it for me, nor did he demand payment as these clowns were doing. the child simply did what he was asked to do, to no though of personal gain or how his service would help him get a leg up on his neighbor. This was the level of 'love your neighbor' needed to even pass the gates... How do you not see that?

Quote:No, actually not. In reality you have to be "born again" in order to see the kingdom of God. In John 3:3-8 Jesus says:

   "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

Context Context Context!!!
Who was Nicodemus and what did He do?

He was a high ranking Paharisee and He Humbled himself like the child did in Mat 18, acknowledged Who Jesus was and recognized He was sent from God. Then as a leader of his people asked a question of God. God returned by giving Him a full answer. Remember he was a scholar and their was no need to soften or feed this man a little at a time, So God the Son laid everything on the table at once> so Nicodemus was given a complete outline of the New covenant which he promptly choked on, because he also revealed himself as the Son of God.

Quote:But let's ignore the contradiction for a moment. Is this true? If we become like little children... in fact, if we regress all the way to infants by being "born again" of water and the Spirit, do we get to go to heaven? No... Jesus is wrong again. Because in Matthew 5:17-20 Jesus says this:

Whoa whoa whoa little miss can be wrong... Are you forcing a literal interpretation of becoming like little children, and being literally being born of the water and spirit? Jesus Himself explains to Nicodemus what being born of the water (natural birth) and being born of the Spirit means... You are throwing out Jesus' explaination to make your argument work... will you claim your 'interpretation' trumps that of Jesus?

Jesus is describing the How one lives forever, not what one must do. You in your haste assume we are supposed to regress back to being a child and to be literaly born somehow Jesus directly answers that fallacy from nicodemus....

Jesus with the child shows us that unless we are selfless like that child we can not love our neighbor. Jesus told nicodemus that 'we' must be born of the Spirit. Being Born of the Spirit is not something we do, but something that is done by the Spirit! Read ALL of John 3 not just your verse scrap !!! Context !!!

 He tell us like being born of the body/water it is something that happens to us to enter this world, To enter of the Spiritual world we must be 'born again' by the holy Spirit. Again we had no control of being birthed into this world starting at verse 16 tell us how we can qualify to be born of the Spirit, and Yes it goes back to our greatest command in that we must Love God with all of our being! But being born of the Spirit is not something we do but something God does!

Quote:   "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

so here Jesus is saying that our righteousness, and our adherence to the laws of the old testament, must exceed that of the Pharisees in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Does the Righteousness of Jesus exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees?
Just for a point of clarity, Jesus never sinned. the Pharisees did.
So the answer there is Yes. Jesus' righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees... But if only their were someway for us to obtain the righteousness of Jesus... Oh, wait a tick John 3:16 tells us that if we simply "BELIEVE" (As Both Jesus AND Paul AND James says we should believe) we get to claim the righteousness of Christ for ourselves!!!

Quote:And then there is John 3:16 contradicting jesus' instructions and adheres to paulist ideology :

   "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

lest you forget John 6:47 where all Jesus says you need is to just believe like Paul did... Yet He said we had to also work... Hmmm unless Jesus just forgot, the word 'believe' in his day meant more then just an intellectual acceptance.. The Belief they required also involved one's involvement in what they believed!

what else you got???

Oh, wait I know how about just talk past me and use your failed examples again! that always works!!!

(November 5, 2015 at 4:18 pm)robvalue Wrote: If it's at all corrupted, and not the perfect word of god, then every sentence stands or falls on its own merit.

drich should report it i think hes being really irresponsible all of christianity is basically a cult they are basing their beliefs on a corrupted bible but it was corrupted before the first bible ever came into being anyways by paul but oh

well since noone is going to return to this earlier translation (since everyone thinks the translations are perfect)  and everyone is obeying a corrupted bible we can pretty much write off the authenticity of this religion right drich ?

(November 5, 2015 at 2:59 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: so jesus himself did not speak of any kind of "new covenent"

ok so give me book chapter and verse (Old Testament B/C/V) for what Jesus said was the way to heaven in John 3. Show me where moses Abraham or David laid out what is in John 3 as the way to eternal life... Or is this 'New' somehow.. Like maybe some sort of New Promise or New Covenant that had not been heard upto Jesus gave it to the Law giver.

Quote: or that he would be a sacrifice for the sins of humanity

It starts at John 3:14 This is where Jesus tells nicodemus that He was to be like the bronze snake Moses was told to make, nail to a pole and raise up over the people so they could look up at it and live, He too was also to be put up 'on a pole and lifted up' so all could live. but as He explains to Nick, his role was to give all who believe eternal life.

Quote:in fact jesus told a caananite woman he only came for the jews not for the gentiles and he didnt say anything about dying for jew sins either .

because again the full will/plan of God was not revealed to everyone. only those who could or were worthy to deal with it.

Quote: he said he was the messiah the jews were not expecting any half God half man hybrid creature but a descendent of david fully human

So what? Who cares what the Jews were expecting. If the OT tells us anything God seldom if EVER worked like the Jews expected Him to work. look at the exodus.. or judges, or anything really. Only his prophets had any idea. Like for instance John the Baptist. While the rest remained clueless.

Quote:and neither did jesus see himself as God or part God (the trinity was a foreign concept to jesus he repeatedly said that God is ONE never 3 in 1)   , it was invented by paul and other people later , jesus had no awareness of it just like i said .

where are you getting this stuff? off a muslim website?
John 14:26 Jesus says He must leave so the Father can send the Holy Spirit.

" I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone. The law will not lose even the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter until it is finished.

Then just before He died what were His last words? "It is finished."

Quote:dont you think that jesus meant by "finished" as the heaven and earth being gone . when jesus died on the cross both heaven and earth remained right? I assure you that nothing will disappear from the law until heaven and earth are gone  . well both still exist right ?

Read it again, The Law will remain until Heaven and earth are gone... The law will not Change in the slightest till IT IS FINISHED!!!

The Law REMAINS AGAIN READ ROMANS 7 Paul Tells us what the Law is for..
..AND We now live (2000 years) AFTER the Point where the Law could not change (even in the slightest way) AGAIN, That is Why Jesus Taught the old way to get to Heaven (Because IT WAS NOT Finished) When He taught it. This does Not mean the Law must Remain as it was BEFORE it was Finished!

(November 5, 2015 at 3:31 pm)robvalue Wrote: What about all the poor saps trying to interpret the perfect message of god that didn't happen upon this forum and this particular thread?

They're just getting it wrong, presumably.

All they need do is read in context... I know rob you can actually be bothered to read what you are trying to snipe on, but all I ever did to 'refute' Jen-knees contradictions was to read her passages back in their original contexts.

" Because Again, before Jesus died that is how it was done. when Jesus was ask, He had not died and returned. The "New Covenant" does not start with the New Testament. It starts with Acts 2. It starts with the out pouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of pentacost. "

which jesus never predicted or said would happen upon his death so we rely on the testimony of luke for that right but jesus himself never spoke of this .

(November 5, 2015 at 4:05 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(November 5, 2015 at 3:31 pm)robvalue Wrote: What about all the poor saps trying to interpret the perfect message of god that didn't happen upon this forum and this particular thread?

They're just getting it wrong, presumably.

yes thats quite a claim that the current bibles that billions of people have are completely corrupted from the latin and greek translations , wouldnt that call into question everything if its all been corrupted he should at least send a memo to the catholic church , unless they already know its corrupted because they corrupted it hmmm . well tell the protestants lol accident or intentional time to reexamine the bible how it was put together  and how what exists has changed so dramatically that what we have now contradicts itself and drich if you have this information shouldnt you be telling everyone about it ??

Strawman much?

When or where did I Ever point to the original text and say it was corrupt?

What I did was expose your intellectually dishonest practices of taking 1/2 a verse from romans 10 and cut and pasting it to a verse of romans 4 or a verse from eph 2 and reading it as if Paul contextually wrote that all out Himself.

You are guilt of cherrypicking to build strawmen out of the bible to mock this religion, and then attacking the falsehood you built! Again, very your own objective arguments were self defeating in that if you had to cut and paste an argument together from several scraps of scripture then we already know the bible does not endorse your butchery of it!

Calling your hack job into question is not calling the original source material into question. I used original source material to straighten out your false documentation of scripture.

How about you address that! How about you own up to your own misdeeds and intellectual dishonesty.

rather than lie and try to garner support from people to lazy to read the mess you left.

(November 5, 2015 at 5:05 pm)Drich Wrote:

(November 5, 2015 at 3:31 pm)robvalue Wrote: What about all the poor saps trying to interpret the perfect message of god that didn't happen upon this forum and this particular thread?

They're just getting it wrong, presumably.

All they need do is read in context... I know rob you can actually be bothered to read what you are trying to snipe on, but all I ever did to 'refute' Jen-knees contradictions was to read her passages back in their original contexts.

you yourself said that the original had been mistranslated what christians have now is not the same as the original text so what christianity has now is corrupted word of God dont you agree then that christians need to give up the modern translations and go back to the original text in greek ?

(November 5, 2015 at 4:18 pm)robvalue Wrote: If it's at all corrupted, and not the perfect word of god, then every sentence stands or falls on its own merit.

again lazy person who obvious could not even bother to read what he feels he can expertly comment on from a blind...

I am not questioning the scripture. I am question the ethics of a person who literally takes 1/2 a verse from one part of the bible and puts it together with several other verses source from other chapters or books and then represents them as being a doctrinal teaching of Paul. This is dishonest in all fields of study, yet people like you are on her side? How messed up is that?

what I did fix all of this was to first identify all the verse scraps she butchered out of context and simply read the context. from this 95% of her work came undone/show to be wrong. I used the bible in it's completed form to disprove her work not call it into question.

Quote:I am not questioning the scripture.

You should.  Explains how you are so easily conned.

(November 5, 2015 at 5:16 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(November 5, 2015 at 5:05 pm)Drich Wrote: All they need do is read in context... I know rob you can actually be bothered to read what you are trying to snipe on, but all I ever did to 'refute' Jen-knees contradictions was to read her passages back in their original contexts.

you yourself said that the original had been mistranslated what christians have now is not the same as the original text so what christianity has now is corrupted word of God

Nope.

you want to try again?

I remember telling you that our use of the a word in English is not always the same as a word we translate from. so we have to go back to whatever the original word is to make sure we are using it correctly IF It Seems To Contradict Something Else Written!

THIS IS TRUE OF ALL TRANSLATED MATERAL! Not Just the Bible.

Example in the greek their are 5 words with 5 different meaning that we in the English translate as just the one word 'love.'

Each greek word describes a completely different aspect of our word love, yet when translated these differences are not communicated unless one knows context, region, and culture which again is not communicated in a simple literal translation (which most bibles are.)

That is why so many of you foolishly Think God loves everyone. When in truth God Agape' the world. Agape' is conditional, it's based on respect for God. but 'love' in the English is a 'feeling' that can change, but is forever, that has boundries, but at the same time is limitless.

So in short I did not question the bible. I question your reading of it. You read it and by cutting, pasting and assigning your definations to english words that are supposed to repersent koine greek make it say whatever you want. I question that.