The American practice of torture was and is an insult to the veterans of our country.

I would never serve a country that deems torture acceptable.

(November 22, 2015 at 5:41 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Torture cannot be justified.  It's inhumane.  Even against terrorists who blow themselves up in the name of their god.  When we sink to their level, we become no better than them.   It's debatable if it even saves lives.  And there's far better ways of getting information from terrorists.  

Just because Americans aren't currently being tortured, doesn't mean they wont' be in the future.  If you're willing to torture people to 'save lives', you'll be willing to torture people for other reasons too.  It's a slippery slope to the bottom, and Republicans are racing toward that bottom.  Surprising since they're so anti-government that they're afraid the government is getting too much power, yet they don't see giving them the power to torture is doing just that.

Do you believe killing is ever justified?

(November 22, 2015 at 9:11 pm)Lek Wrote: Do you believe killing is ever justified?

Sure.  It can be justified in self defense.  Or in times of war (though usually that's a case of self defense, or for the defense of others).   It's not justifiable in the case of wanting information.

(November 22, 2015 at 9:14 pm)Cecelia Wrote:

(November 22, 2015 at 9:11 pm)Lek Wrote: Do you believe killing is ever justified?

Sure.  It can be justified in self defense.  Or in times of war (though usually that's a case of self defense, or for the defense of others).   It's not justifiable in the case of wanting information.

What if obtaining that information could save many innocent lives?

(November 22, 2015 at 9:19 pm)Lek Wrote: What if obtaining that information could save many innocent lives?

Then surely you can find another way of obtaining it.   Especially since killing someone isn't likely to yield information, just as torturing someone isn't likely to yield information.

(November 22, 2015 at 9:26 pm)Cecelia Wrote:

(November 22, 2015 at 9:19 pm)Lek Wrote: What if obtaining that information could save many innocent lives?

Then surely you can find another way of obtaining it.   Especially since killing someone isn't likely to yield information, just as torturing someone isn't likely to yield information.

I just can't understand why you wouldn't allow torture to save peoples laves, but you would allow killing people to do so. Why is waterboarding worse than killing someone? What other way would you suggest to obtain the information from a hardened terrorist?

(November 22, 2015 at 9:30 pm)Lek Wrote: I just can't understand why you wouldn't allow torture to save peoples laves, but you would allow killing people to do so.  Why is waterboarding worse than killing someone?  What other way would you suggest to obtain the information from a hardened terrorist?

Uhh, I said I wouldn't consider it justified to kill someone for information.

(November 22, 2015 at 9:19 pm)Lek Wrote:

(November 22, 2015 at 9:14 pm)Cecelia Wrote: Sure.  It can be justified in self defense.  Or in times of war (though usually that's a case of self defense, or for the defense of others).   It's not justifiable in the case of wanting information.

What if obtaining that information could save many innocent lives?

The Dick Cheney fantasy.  There is a general problem with terrorists.  You tend to catch them after they strike, not before.  We've had the NSA spying on the whole fucking country and they are unable to cite a single case where that has prevented a single attack.

Most of the attacks that are stopped are infiltrated by informants - a civil libertarian might suggest that the FBI informants are entrapping them but let's not worry about that now...IOW, the old-fashioned way. 

Sadly it comes down to, are you willing to be as big a scumbag as the other side.  You seem quite ready to step forward and say "Yes, I Am."  Which is sad because we managed to defeat Germany and Japan without torturing prisoners.  In fact, our treatment of enemy POWs was generally exemplary.

I think you better go back and read that fucking bible of yours.  You seem to have glossed over quite a bit of it.

(November 22, 2015 at 9:42 pm)Cecelia Wrote:

(November 22, 2015 at 9:30 pm)Lek Wrote: I just can't understand why you wouldn't allow torture to save peoples laves, but you would allow killing people to do so.  Why is waterboarding worse than killing someone?  What other way would you suggest to obtain the information from a hardened terrorist?

Uhh, I said I wouldn't consider it justified to kill someone for information.

But the information is used to prevent terrorist attacks which kill people, including women and children. And the victims of torture still live. I feel that it is important to protect innocent human lives and, if waterboarding someone who has sworn to take innocent lives, could save peoples' lives I think it would be justified. Don't get me wrong. I'm not just for indiscriminately torturing people, but just as killing could be justified for the right reason, so could torture.

(November 22, 2015 at 9:53 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(November 22, 2015 at 9:19 pm)Lek Wrote: What if obtaining that information could save many innocent lives?

The Dick Cheney fantasy.  There is a general problem with terrorists.  You tend to catch them after they strike, not before.  We've had the NSA spying on the whole fucking country and they are unable to cite a single case where that has prevented a single attack.

Most of the attacks that are stopped are infiltrated by informants - a civil libertarian might suggest that the FBI informants are entrapping them but let's not worry about that now...IOW, the old-fashioned way. 

Sadly it comes down to, are you willing to be as big a scumbag as the other side.  You seem quite ready to step forward and say "Yes, I Am."  Which is sad because we managed to defeat Germany and Japan without torturing prisoners.  In fact, our treatment of enemy POWs was generally exemplary.

I think you better go back and read that fucking bible of yours.  You seem to have glossed over quite a bit of it.

The other side is for killing anybody who doesn't go along with them, including children and anybody who gets in the way. My side is for protecting innocent life, whether they go along with me or not.