(December 6, 2015 at 9:05 pm)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: If Islamic terrorism was really only caused by economic and political reasons, then people from the USA and UK wouldn't be leaving these prosperous nations to join them. Islam is indeed a driving factor in terrorism. Is it the only factor? No, but it's a significant one.

Ah, yes. There are no ghettos and poverty in these prosperous nations.

Were you born yesterday or are you ignorant on purpose?

Also, you might want to look up Europol and FBI statistics concerning terrorist attacks. Religiously motivated terror makes up 4 to 5 percent of all terrorist attacks on European and American soil. And that's not even singling out Islam.

(December 7, 2015 at 6:28 am)abaris Wrote:

(December 6, 2015 at 9:05 pm)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: If Islamic terrorism was really only caused by economic and political reasons, then people from the USA and UK wouldn't be leaving these prosperous nations to join them. Islam is indeed a driving factor in terrorism. Is it the only factor? No, but it's a significant one.

Ah, yes. There are no ghettos and poverty in these prosperous nations.

Were you born yesterday or are you ignorant on purpose?

Also, you might want to look up Europol and FBI statistics concerning terrorist attacks. Religiously motivated terror makes up 4 to 5 percent of all terrorist attacks on European and American soil. And that's not even singling out Islam.

But do those statistics don't account for the severity of the attacks? The attack in Paris which resulted in over 100 people being shot dead probably made up less than 4% of all terrorist activities in Paris that year,  9/11 in new york was just one plot resulting in Islamic terrorist action against the twin towers, say if animal rights activists petrol bombed an empty car on the day of 9/11 you could statistically say that the twin tower attacks only made up 50% of the attacks which happened in new york that day.
I think a more important and valid statistic would be which terrorist attacks leave the most people dead or wounded and if there is are groups responsible which groups are they.

Also I think a lot of the people going to join ISIS don't come from slums, at least in most of the newspaper reports I've seen they tend to have jobs or be students.

(December 6, 2015 at 9:05 pm)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: If Islamic terrorism was really only caused by economic and political reasons, then people from the USA and UK wouldn't be leaving these prosperous nations to join them. Islam is indeed a driving factor in terrorism. Is it the only factor? No, but it's a significant one.

Not to mention South America, where I come from. It's also a 3rd world continent with corrupt governments, drug problems, education problems, and lots of poverty. But we don't get Catholic people over there (since it is mostly very Catholic) running around the streets constantly killing each other in the name of Jesus. To say all this nonstop bloodshed in the name of "Allah" has absolutely nothing to do with the fundamental nature/culture of Islam is just dishonest.

(December 7, 2015 at 10:42 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 6, 2015 at 9:05 pm)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: If Islamic terrorism was really only caused by economic and political reasons, then people from the USA and UK wouldn't be leaving these prosperous nations to join them. Islam is indeed a driving factor in terrorism. Is it the only factor? No, but it's a significant one.

Not to mention South America, where I come from. It's also a 3rd world continent with corrupt governments, drug problems, education problems, and lots of poverty. But we don't get Catholic people over there (since it is mostly very Catholic) running around the streets constantly killing each other in the name of Jesus. To say all this nonstop bloodshed has nothing to do with the fundamental nature of Islam is just dishonest.

That's South America. Different times and environments yield different patterns of behaviour. You want recent examples where Christians have killed in the name of Jesus, there's the Middle East (and specifically Lebanon, if you want a specific example). Even after the civil war long gone in Lebanon, Christian party members still have not gotten over their lust to fight and kill, and they have certainly done so "in the name of Jesus". For the record, in Lebanon, there is not much difference in privilege and rights between Christians and Muslims. And so it makes sense they do not really behave all that differently from each other there. Even Hizballah is not more extreme than, say, Lebanese Forces or SSNP (both Christian groups).

(December 5, 2015 at 3:45 am)Losty Wrote: I openly criticize Islam and defend Muslims, and I am not ashamed of either.

^^^this this this this this this this this

+4.7m kudos, +93 reps

Since I can't do that, have a hug instead

*hug

(December 7, 2015 at 6:28 am)abaris Wrote:

(December 6, 2015 at 9:05 pm)Mechaghostman2 Wrote: If Islamic terrorism was really only caused by economic and political reasons, then people from the USA and UK wouldn't be leaving these prosperous nations to join them. Islam is indeed a driving factor in terrorism. Is it the only factor? No, but it's a significant one.

Ah, yes. There are no ghettos and poverty in these prosperous nations.

Were you born yesterday or are you ignorant on purpose?

Also, you might want to look up Europol and FBI statistics concerning terrorist attacks. Religiously motivated terror makes up 4 to 5 percent of all terrorist attacks on European and American soil. And that's not even singling out Islam.

Yeah, because a bunch of inner city Christians are going into Uganda to kill gays, or something. Seriously, that has to be the dumbest argument you've made yet. And umm, the people leaving these nations to join Isis aren't excursively from the ghetto or poverty stricken areas. Shit, some of them are even rather wealthy. 

Fucking PC dogma man, it's become a fucking religion.

That's only terrorist attacks in the west. How about the terrorists in the Middle East?

The point is that people don't become radicalized on a whim.  Radicalization is the symptom of other problems.  A big problem is Islam itself, and those indoctrinated in it from an early age/the start of their lives.

But, the people who come from decent lives to become ISIS are very obviously trying to fill some kind of void.  And that's what we need to figure out.  I mean, it's one thing for people living in the shithole that is the Middle East to become radicalized.  It's, sadly, something to be expected given the last 50-100 years of conflict in the region.  But what makes ISIS not just palatable, but desirable to certain people living in the West?

You don't just decide to blow yourself up, or run the risk of suicide by cop without there being a deeper issue.  And it's intellectually lazy to lay that at the feet of Islam, which strikes me as being no more credible than any other religion.  We need to figure out and address those underlying problems that cause people here to fly to the Middle East, drink the Kool-Aid, get training/equipment/money, and decide to kill people.  Because that's the actual threat.  Not the assholes fighting over land in the Middle East, but the nice quiet neighbor down the street who decides to kill 10-20 people in glorious Jihad.

mralstoner Wrote:

Mechaghostman2 Wrote:Why is it that when one criticizes Islam, and criticizes the extremists of Islam and points to their religion as being, in part, responsible for such behavior, that it is Atheists who will come in rushing to defend the religion? ...

Inb4 you're a racist islamaphobe bigot, Islam isn't a race, it's an ideology.

That's probably the reason right there: Islam is an ideology, yet most people don't know that, they just see you being critical and they conclude that you must be a hater, a trouble maker, the problem not the solution.

Most people have no clue about the doctrine and history of Islam, and the barbaric example of Mohammed. It's beyond their comprehension that a religion could offer paradise for being killed/martyred while fighting to defend/expand the religion. All they see is you being "hateful".

And that gets to another deep reason why people defend Islam, because if we admit that Islam is not a religion of peace, then we have to admit that Muslim immigration is a catastrophic mistake, which brings the whole edifice of Western sanity crashing down. It reveals that the Western world, at its heart, is completely insane, and there's nobody in the driver's seat. Rather, we're driving headlong over a cliff. And that's just too crazy for people to contemplate.

That's part of the reason that Obama refuses to call terrorists Islamic, because it will logically put the spotlight on Muslim immigration. But Obama identifies with brown people and Muslims, and doesn't want to stop Muslim immigration, no matter what the cost to national security.

Islam is ridiculous. Mohamed was not a prophet. There is probably no Allah. Terrorism is unjustified.

Find me an atheist here who will disagree with what I just said. Yet, I am one of the atheists that you think 'defend Islam'. Because you can't tell the difference between 'defending Islam' and 'defending innocent Muslims'.

Islam is derived from Christianity and you can go up to a person on the street in America and read them verses out of a Bible disguised as the Koran and have them nodding their heads in agreement over how barbaric Islam is.

Islam is not a religion of peace. The only peaceful religions I can think of are the Jains, Quakers, and Unitarians...though I may have to add Ahmadi Muslims to that list, if I'm going to break it down that finely. But they all claim to be about love and peace.

Muslim immigration has been a resounding success. They integrate well, pay taxes, and in general are proud, patriotic Americans whose sons and daughters offer their lives in the service of our country.

What's insane is thinking there is a scenario where Muslims, even if they wanted to, can have enough power in America to override our Constitution. They're less than 3% of our population. Add 100,000 and they're still less than 3% of our population. And if we ever feel like we have too many Muslims, we have a country next door with all the Catholics we could want.

There's no problem with calling the terrorists 'radical Islamists', because that is actually an accurate term for them. Calling terrorists Islamic is like calling parents who beat their children to death trying to follow Biblical child-rearing advice Christian. It implies that they are following their religion correctly. That's not a good message to send.

Catholic_Lady Wrote:

Mechaghostman2 Wrote:If Islamic terrorism was really only caused by economic and political reasons, then people from the USA and UK wouldn't be leaving these prosperous nations to join them. Islam is indeed a driving factor in terrorism. Is it the only factor? No, but it's a significant one.

Not to mention South America, where I come from. It's also a 3rd world continent with corrupt governments, drug problems, education problems, and lots of poverty. But we don't get Catholic people over there (since it is mostly very Catholic) running around the streets constantly killing each other in the name of Jesus. To say all this nonstop bloodshed in the name of "Allah" has absolutely nothing to do with the fundamental nature/culture of Islam is just dishonest.

South American Catholics are pretty homogenous compared to Shia, Sunnis, Sufis, Ahmadis, and Ismailis. Muslims are generally not running around killing people who agree with them either. DAESH ideology is so different from the typical Sunni's that it ought to be counted as a separate sect.

To pretend the European wars of religion (1524-1648) had absolutely nothing to do with the fundamental nature/culture of Christianity is just dishonest.

You kind of have to take them both or take neither, but you don't get to pick one or the other. If over a hundred years of bloody war between different Christian sects doesn't speak to the fundamental nature/culture of Christianity, the mere fact that the Islamist troubles are more current does not make them more relevant if the topic is fundamental nature/culture.

Fuck faith, love people. We criticize the shit out of Islam but defend human beings. Atheists who can't separate the two are as bad as theists who can't either.