(December 14, 2015 at 6:00 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: Please don't be putting words in my mouth, as if I said that agriculture evolved overnight.

Yes, there had to be a period of transition as experimentation played out. Cities could not have existed with inland peoples as they have since agriculture developed prior to this so-called "revolution". Popular trading sites are known to have existed, ok - but I don't think the word "city" properly applies to this. Even if they were big and complex enough by whatever standards apply for said title, my point was that cities aren't everywhere on the map prior to agriculture, and without this development the hunter-gatherer culture may have persisted with widely scattered trading towns to this day.

I only added that because our understanding of early ag (and thus it's relation to early cities) has changed drastically since 30 years ago, and I'm a bit of a geek about the subject.  The transition period now seems to have been longer than we thought, ag wasn't as successful as we thought - even after it's introduction.   Those tracing sites were still h/g societies at a more well developed point than we thought.  

In the end we may simply have a difference between us in how we approach the term, or those sites.  

In any case, I've only been presenting the h/g counterexamples to show that ag was not a necessary foundation for city building (as gods are not a necessary foundation, imo), not to dispute that it was wildly successful and that the largest cities and indeed all of the world developed from an ag model.  We haven't been giving h/g societies the credit due, is all.  Bit of a re-apropriation coming from us, as part of agricultural society.  It;s not as if they couldn't build sites to rival or exceed those early ag sites...they did.  For a time, a long time, they had the upper hand. We largely built our first cities around theirs. They built more of it than we previously imagined. Early raiders would have come from neighboring -agricultural settlements-, they needed the food.

A sometimes idea in sci-fi is interstellar colonies founded by idealistic groups of colonists. I note Klendathu (LDS), Thalassa (atheism), Levant (Muslim), and probably many more.

It would be fascinating to actually do the experiment, give 'em 1000 years or so, and see how closely they followed their charters, and how well they did.

Found a better way to express myself after a good nights sleep.

If belief in spirits, afterlives, supernatural forces and powers, gods...behavioral modernity, predates the neolithic revolution by 40k years, and it does, then we had been carrying gods around with us all that time...and yet not done the farming or city building thing.  It doesn't seem to have helped, or helped to facilitate, and the emergence of agricultural society cannot have been a causitive agent for a pattern of behavior that predates it by 40k years.  If it were facilitation, either of city building societies..or of agricultural city building societies specifically..again, it does not seem to have helped - as those cities and their ag were not well managed, not well facilitated..and they could not have been.  Thus leading to a stranger question of why it would persist if it was not successful. There's certainly no general rule of benefit that can be inferred with regards to gods and religions and cities - and we needn't wonder on that count, as we can see how divisive religion can be and often is, how much of an additional burden it can place upon administration of anything.  

What explanation is it, then, to propose that gods are somehow explained in part by ag or ag cities....or that ag or ag cities are somehow also then, explained in part by god beliefs? I'm trying to understand where this position is coming from.

(December 14, 2015 at 7:17 pm)abaris Wrote:

(December 14, 2015 at 2:46 pm)Kingpin Wrote: I've even heard the argument that the advancement of sciences by Newton, Kepler and Galileo was because of their belief in a creator.

Newton, by all accounts, even was a fundamentalist. But that doesn't change the fact, they were, for the most part, persecuted by religious authorities. Keppler wasn't. I even have to leather bound calendaries from 1647 and 1649 with a preliminary by Johannes Keppler. My father found them when he was setting up shop right after the war.

But that aside. I would add what I always say when this is asked. I don't even think, it's desirable for religion to vanish. The void would be filled by some other unknown ideology. Many people always look for direction. What I wish for is fundamentalist religion to vanish, since it mostly does harm. Not belief as such.

The void may be filled by professional mental health counselors, and then there would be significantly less misdirection of those in search of direction. Said people may even find their own way.

(December 14, 2015 at 7:17 pm)abaris Wrote:

(December 14, 2015 at 2:46 pm)Kingpin Wrote: I've even heard the argument that the advancement of sciences by Newton, Kepler and Galileo was because of their belief in a creator.

Newton, by all accounts, even was a fundamentalist. But that doesn't change the fact, they were, for the most part, persecuted by religious authorities. Keppler wasn't. I even have to leather bound calendaries from 1647 and 1649 with a preliminary by Johannes Keppler. My father found them when he was setting up shop right after the war.

But that aside. I would add what I always say when this is asked. I don't even think, it's desirable for religion to vanish. The void would be filled by some other unknown ideology. Many people always look for direction. What I wish for is fundamentalist religion to vanish, since it mostly does harm. Not belief as such.

I find that I agree. I governments use religion to control the masses, they won't give that up unless they have something to replace it with. Imagine if they twisted science to serve that purpose

In 1851, the physician Samuel Cartwright wrote a paper in which he described a desease he called drepetomania. drapeto being Greek (? correct me if I'm wrong) for run away slave. So drapetomania was a mental disorder that gripped the African slave with the uncontrollable urde (mania) to run away from slavery.

So it's not the tool being used but the intent of those wielding it, whether religious or science or economics or education that will determine how free people will be.

(December 15, 2015 at 4:02 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: The void may be filled by professional mental health counselors, and then there would be significantly less misdirection of those in search of direction. Said people may even find their own way.

Fairies and pink and elephants float from everyone's buttholes and shit smells like roses. Dream on as Aerosmith said. You know nothing about humanity. There will always be a flag to rally behind to feel superior and protected. It will just fly a different color.

(December 15, 2015 at 6:41 pm)abaris Wrote:

(December 15, 2015 at 4:02 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: The void may be filled by professional mental health counselors, and then there would be significantly less misdirection of those in search of direction. Said people may even find their own way.

Fairies and pink and elephants float from everyone's buttholes and shit smells like roses. Dream on as Aerosmith said. You know nothing about humanity. There will always be a flag to rally behind to feel superior and protected. It will just fly a different color.

---

(December 15, 2015 at 6:41 pm)abaris Wrote:

(December 15, 2015 at 4:02 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: The void may be filled by professional mental health counselors, and then there would be significantly less misdirection of those in search of direction. Said people may even find their own way.

Fairies and pink and elephants float from everyone's buttholes and shit smells like roses. Dream on as Aerosmith said. You know nothing about humanity. There will always be a flag to rally behind to feel superior and protected. It will just fly a different color.

Well at least you picked the right band for the asshole theme.

To answer the OP, I hope so, and I think it is fading some. Younger kids are wising up. It's the right knit indoctrinating families that are the biggest influence right now.

(December 15, 2015 at 6:41 pm)abaris Wrote: You know nothing...

Raven: SNOW!!

Raven: SNOW!!!

Are you Abaris the prophet, or are you Jon Snow?

...ask the raven.

I have decided, yes. One day religion will definitely become a thing of the past.

If only because all life will.