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I don't know how I can address your points, MK. They pretty much all start with, "Let's assume God exists and that..."

This isn't even a simplified argument like I was alluding to, it's just begging the question. If you assume your conclusion is true, then you can "prove" anything.

I don't know what you mean that I don't acknowledge things. Your arguments are all hypothetical, and have no evidence to support them. If you are interested in reality, then my advice is to not assume anything more than necessary, and consider the evidence.

If you can't conceive of God not being somehow axiomatic, then really there's not much more I can say.

But like I said, even if Islam is true, you don't have to follow it. Would you like to discuss that point?

(December 29, 2015 at 8:47 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(December 29, 2015 at 8:41 pm)Red_Wind Wrote: Lots of claims and "ifs" in your comment, zero proof.

This should be interesting.

1. This is a conversation between Robvalue and I.

2. It's not about proving, but coming to a mutual understanding of our positions.

This discussion is not meant for everyone to come in with their smart Alek remarks, or cheer lead or whatever.

It's between Robvalue and I to come to a mutual understanding.

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Yeah, don't be keeping us down. Islam was so obviously made by someone close to the equator, with limited concepts of space and time. It's blatantly man made.

(December 29, 2015 at 9:03 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Yeah refuted. I've been here on forums for a while now. I'm very well aware of how good at refutations you guys are.

Equally good as you are at cherry picking what you want to reply to and ignoring good points.

The point I made by that wasn't for you to accept God or Islam or that people deny God or his proofs knowingly.

I suggest re-read the point I'm trying to convey. That Atheism is always demanding proofs, while from the position of Islam proofs are often denied and people rebel against submitting to God after the way and guidance has been made clear to them. Why does this occur. Because of evil corruption chaotic rebellion towards the balance and the light.

So I want us to come to mutual understanding. That I understand Atheism is demanding proofs for God but I want you to understand Islam is saying we been originated on knowledge of God and his Oneness, but people rebel against this knowledge and submission to his path, often, despite it being made manifest to them.

That while God excuses people being heedless and neglectful of this when they are not reminded, that he doesn't excuse it when it's become manifest to them it's the truth but they rebel against it.

I'm happy to use PM instead if you want MK, but otherwise we can't expect others not to comment.

It may be possible however that I won't be able to continue this anyway, depending on your response. There are an infinite number of hypothetical scenarios, which is why it makes sense to focus only only on those that have evidence. I think discussing why you won't abandon it even if it is true is a more fruitful discussion.

In a way, you're trying to think for yourself and argue here, in order to prove that you shouldn't think for yourself and to just do what some other being tells you to do. Instead, I recommend continuing to think for yourself. There is no need to leave behind any wisdom you have found in the religion, it's not like you have to sever yourself. But there is a lot of ground between full rejection and blind obedience.

Edit: to reply to the above, OK, yes I acknowledge that's what you think about Islam. What more can I say?

(December 30, 2015 at 1:37 am)robvalue Wrote: But like I said, even if Islam is true, you don't have to follow it. Would you like to discuss that point?

You will have to elaborate on this. I don't quite know what you mean. If Islam is true, it demands we submit to God as the right of God upon us. So if Islam (one has to submit to God principle in humanity) is true, then we have to submit to God. Or otherwise you are saying, if we have to submit to God we don't have to submit to God which doesn't make much sense.

No, if Islam is true, God is expecting us to submit to him. I'm saying we don't have to do it. We can simply refuse.

(December 30, 2015 at 1:57 am)robvalue Wrote: No, if Islam is true, God is expecting us to submit to him. I'm saying we don't have to do it. We can simply refuse.

If Islam is true, it's human nature to know they ought to submit to God. Yes we can refuse. It just would be going against the principle of the balance, the light, the way, to ascend to God.

You're using the word "ought" to mean what God wants us to do again. If he puts it in our nature, he's programming us to do something. That's not a reason to do it. This is exactly what I'm talking about, thinking for yourself. Human nature is not something independent from God, if he made us. It's just his opinion of what we should do.

Obviously it's not in my nature to submit to anyone or anything. If God made me that way, then he can deal with it. I'm doing just fine. I don't want to "ascend to" anything which is bullying me into submission, I want nothing to do with them.

If he didn't want us to think for ourselves, he shouldn't have given us the ability to do so.

I would suggest some serious thought about this issue, because it seems you are indeed someone who cannot conceive of not bowing down to a celestial dictator just because they exist and demand that you do.