(March 10, 2009 at 7:37 pm)padraic Wrote: @thoughtful
I have never learned anything positive from suffering. Physical suffering is just suffering. It teaches you not to put your hand into the fire ,and to see a doctor. Emotional suffering has made me cynical

I do not fear being dead it's not an experience. However, like human beings generally I fear dying.It's not a choice,but forms part of my instinct for survival. I'm sure there are exceptions,there are for most general principles

I see what you mean. I suppose physical suffering is rather pointless. You put your hand on a hot stove, it stings, and the only thing you learn, is not to touch a hot stove. It's to say that's a happy lesson - it's just a lesson. But emotional suffering? I think that we can learn a lot from emotional suffering.

Such as when you were at school (hypothetical example), and you were real rude to someone, then they ignored you. And it hurt. So you learnt not to be rude.

I would agree that suffering itself is no good. I just see it as leading to somewhere. For example, if someone was bullied in school (not physically, just emotionally), they might learn that words can only hurt if you take them to heart. Sure, plenty of people end up bitter and twisted from suffering in their past. But I think that is them avoiding the obvious, that is, they don't want to learn a lesson. They want to keep believing as they have for however long, and it makes them uncomfortable to change.

Or take girls. I remember I couldn't talk to girls. They were rude, too pretty and downright out of my league. I was very shy for a while. Then at some point I let it go, I 'learnt' my lesson, and now I can talk to whoever I want. The lesson (as far as what I understood) was that girls aren't dangerous. Their words don't actually have to hurt me.

Now I can see that problems with those examples - they're a little light-hearted, ill-equipped to explain the great suffering throughout the world. That is because I could talk about suffering on a larger level, but that would generally involve talking personally.

I don't mean to offend, it's just that to look at suffering as an entirely negative thing, will just make it worse. And religious people say that Atheists can't have a moral standard. But our moral standard came through evolution, learning through what went wrong (suffering), how to make things right. We learnt how to be moral and just people by dealing with suffering and taking the lessons offered by it. If we didn't, we'd probably be either extinct, monkeys swinging through trees.

I think sometimes it takes a breakdown to have a breakthrough.

(March 10, 2009 at 8:39 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I think sometimes it takes a breakdown to have a breakthrough.

Wise words. They're the best breakthroughs of all.

@thoughtful

I accept what you say is true for you. I suspect our life experiences vary a bit.

My opinions are true for me.


How old are you? If over 50, I congratulate you. If a lot under 50,perhaps print off your posts and revisit them in 10-20 years..

It's said that a sign of insanity is repeating the same behaviour expecting different results. Who I am and how I am now, is the direct result of everything which has gone before. My world view and behaviour have modified over decades to make life acceptable and even afford some contentment on a day-to-day basis


Voltaire said "most men live lives of quiet desperation" Although that's not true for me today,I understand what he meant.

(March 10, 2009 at 7:37 pm)padraic Wrote: I took your cynical response as sarcasm.

Not really.

(March 10, 2009 at 7:37 pm)padraic Wrote: Imo there is no 'right' way to look at life,only a series of different ways.

No fixed morality sure but doesn't that mean that you can't declare grief to be selfish?

(March 10, 2009 at 7:37 pm)padraic Wrote: My life philosophy is that of egoist, skeptic, cynic and misanthropist. To say X Y or Z is selfish is an an observation,not a judgment.

As you wish.

(March 10, 2009 at 7:37 pm)padraic Wrote: You claim that in some ways grief is not selfish. Although I believe you believe that,I honestly can't get my head around the claim. Could you explain what you see about grief which is not about loss,IE the person grieving?

And I can't accept that grief is entirely selfish especially in the immediate aftermath of a loved ones loss. I'm not saying grief can't be selfish, I just don't accept it always is which seems to be the implication of your post.

Kyu

@Kyu

I took your comment as sarcasm; I don't understand you were being cynical.

A moral relativist I may assert that IN MY OPINION X Y or Z is the case. I do not assert my beliefs or opinions are absolutes,only that they are mine. OF course I can say grief is selfish or that it's OK to have sexual congress with ducks.These are opinions,not statements of fact.

Sorry to be a noodge,but you still have not answered my question: How is grief NOT selfish? IF the pain you feel is about YOUR loss, it's "selfish". IE it's about YOU,not the person who has died.

My father died in 2006,he was 87,demented ,and had been dying by inches for 5 years. I could not possibly wish him back, But I still grieve for him,and think of him every day.My grief is about MY sense of loss,and is selfish to that extent.Perhaps not selfish in the sadness I feel for my mother,who at 83, is lost without dad,to whom she was married for 60 years. Perhaps our disagreement may be a matter of semantics. In any case,I have nothing more to say.

Apart from the last paragraph I believe I have already answered (on account of you already saying the same).

(March 11, 2009 at 7:58 am)padraic Wrote: My father died in 2006,he was 87,demented ,and had been dying by inches for 5 years. I could not possibly wish him back, But I still grieve for him,and think of him every day.My grief is about MY sense of loss,and is selfish to that extent.Perhaps not selfish in the sadness I feel for my mother,who at 83, is lost without dad,to whom she was married for 60 years. Perhaps our disagreement may be a matter of semantics. In any case,I have nothing more to say.

And?

When my father died (cancer) 20 or so years ago I do not believe my grief was selfish.

Kyu

What about the empathy of feeling bad for other members of your family feeling bad? Or friends?

If only one person was 'selfishly' feeling grief then all the other members of family and/or friends could selfLESSly feel for them right?

And...surely you feel bad that the person dying is not going to be able to experience life anymore?

Of course it won't be remotely BAD for them afterwards....but they will miss out on life....

No need to fear death because after you've died there's nothing to fear!

But on the case of a loved one...its sad to think that they won't be able to experience life anymore....not only will you miss seeing them...but you will feel bad that they won't be able to continue life I can imagine...

And you'd rather a loved one carried on living without you having ANY contact with them whatsoever than them no longer live right? So its not just about yourself is it, I think? Because I would rather my family members, loved ones and friends were alive but I never had any more contact with them than for them to just not exist any more! Even if it was painless.

EvF

(March 10, 2009 at 11:29 pm)padraic Wrote: @thoughtful

I accept what you say is true for you. I suspect our life experiences vary a bit.

My opinions are true for me.


How old are you? If over 50, I congratulate you. If a lot under 50,perhaps print off your posts and revisit them in 10-20 years..

(March 11, 2009 at 1:23 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: What about the empathy of feeling bad for other members of your family feeling bad? Or friends?

If only one person was 'selfishly' feeling grief then all the other members of family and/or friends could selfLESSly feel for them right?

And...surely you feel bad that the person dying is not going to be able to experience life anymore?

Of course it won't be remotely BAD for them afterwards....but they will miss out on life....

No need to fear death because after you've died there's nothing to fear!

But on the case of a loved one...its sad to think that they won't be able to experience life anymore....not only will you miss seeing them...but you will feel bad that they won't be able to continue life I can imagine...

And you'd rather a loved one carried on living without you having ANY contact with them whatsoever than them no longer live right? So its not just about yourself is it, I think? Because I would rather my family members, loved ones and friends were alive but I never had any more contact with them than for them to just not exist any more! Even if it was painless.

EvF

Life is a little bit like that. As much as life may seem to be objective, and as much as we think we are smarter than religious people, we seem to be all victims of our life experience. Or to put it better, we are products of our past, with little choice as to what we think or believe. But whether that is the case or not, I will think as I do and follow my conclusions to their end.

I'm only 19. Not sure on the average ages of this forum, but I find myself generally a lone person my age with these thoughts. Sure, I've got plenty of friends, but no one who shares a passion to talk about these things. And I'm already doing what you've said about printing them off. I've got journals and articles I've written about these things, since I've left the church and since when I've been in the church.

The funny thing is, most people assume me to be fairly naive and bias since I'm young. Maybe so. But when I was in church, I was the golden child - I preached once or twice, and everyone thought I'd be the next great pastor, etc. Despite a lot of people my age trying to think about these things, I find they don't know enough. I believe that Christianity is defendable to a certain extent. There are some good cases to be made, and I do respect some Christians, believe it or not. Though I do not believe anymore myself, I can understand why people do believe. And I believe that the only way to make a good defence of your own beliefs is to understand another's.

Evidence - I know exactly what you mean. Grief can be selfish, granted. It is focused on the person feeling it, and what they are missing out on. It seems to be entirely one sided and that the person only cares that they are missing the company of that person.

But on the same point, grief is a feeling given freely to another. Let's not let religion keep all those nice sentimental feelings to themselves. Just because we don't believe in god, doesn't mean we don't have to care about another human being.

Sure we care for ourselves and our own wellbeing. But when anyone leaves us, we feel for us AND we feel for them. They've gone, to somewhere, to nothingness. And we feel bad for us, for we no longer have their company, and for the fact that they're not living anymore. They can't hear their kids laugh again, their wife smile or whatever priceless human feeling.

Some might say it's all meaningless without god, but I beg to differ. And if we ever accept their view, then we have been defeated.

Hey thoughtfulman...I'm only 20 (just a year older than you therefore)...

And I have constant bugging, interesting or just plain annoying/meaningless thoughts all the time...

I have very amateur-philosophical thoughts....

I'm like aware of my thoughts all the time practically....

A lot more than most people I wager....its grown more and more over the years...when I was a kid I wasn't really aware of my head so much.....

I know that there are indeed many people who go throughout there day without even realizing that they are the ones worrying...they just worry...they don't notice all the thoughts going off in their head all the time...because they're too busy thinking them and relating them to the world...

I think about thinking all the time...and I have more so through the last few years....

I get single word loops throughout the day.....

Same thought over and over again....hard to make it go away....

I can change the thought but only to like another thought.... I like it when I forget I'm thinking temporarily but at the same time I LIKE being aware and I LIKE thinking about thinking...however annoying ti can so often be.

EvF

P.S: And yes I think Atheism can be life-affirming like Dawkins says....

Having one life makes all the more special....living my life without some retarded super-bloke in the sky makes me feel better actually....I like reality....

Delusion can be comforting in the short-run but in the long-run it can be potentially not so good!!!

And I care about the truth. More than anything probably....

After all love is ultimately no good if its not true....and fake love that stabs you in the back afterwards could at times be perhaps even worse than full on hate! At least then you know what you are dealing with.

So truth is either on even footing with love for me...or just behind....or above in fact. Love is no good if its not really love - similar to as I said just above - delusion can be comforting but that's about it at its best. And its often more a short-run thing than a long-run thing when it potentially starts to really fuck up your life by then.