(January 19, 2016 at 11:57 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 11:21 am)dyresand Wrote: There is no such thing as pop morality morality is just morality. 
Why is it that back in biblical days people were murdering, killing, raping, etc in the name of god.
Opposed to now where people for the most part are  more moral to the biblical counter part.

Lol, Morality is not an absolute.
What was moral a generation or two ago is immoral today and vise versa.

For instance Homosexuality was Immoral a generation ago, and now it is immoral to question it's pop morality. another example two generations ago abortion was Highly Immoral, and now to try and stop an abortion will land one in jail. In 1940's Germany it was one's civic duty to report unregistered jews, and the state sponcered church made it a moral sin to anyone who protected jews.

Morality changes with the culture. What it popular and moral today can be considered Highly immoral tomorrow.

I never said morality is absolute what i am saying is  morality changes.
Homosexuality isn't a sin nor is it immoral it happens in nature deal with it.
All i am stating is that people in the biblical days of the bible had a different
set of morals. These set's of morals back then were deemed fine only because
of the the culture and religion. Now in this day and age we don't kill blasphemers,
witches, stone people, or even follow the bad parts of the bible, unless it's in the third world but
even then. Morality is subjective there is no moral absolutes. Morals are gained
from society at large like we know not to kill, steal or rape etc because it's immoral. 
Like you believe that owning other humans is fine most  people wouldn't agree with you
even if religion supports it.

(January 19, 2016 at 1:40 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 11:58 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: *Scribbles down this example of a theist arguing against absolute morality*

Don't confuse what man identifies as morality and Absolute righteousness as defined by God.

Morality is a works based system of right and wrong. Something obtainable, which is why the standard/bar of morality is always being lowered. While Perfect Righteousness can only be obtained through redemption.

Which is absolute nonsense god of the bible is deemed a moral monster. You can kill, steal, rape, etc 
and all you have to do is ask for forgiveness yeah.. there is something wrong there.

Morality is all slippery when religion gets involved. Equivocation fallacies galore.

Morality either means "What god wants" or it means "What is best for the wellbeing of life on Earth". You have to pick one, and stick with it. They have nothing to do with each other, except by coincidence. And how do we know when they overlap? Because we understand what hurts and helps people. We have our own standard.

If all you care about is what god wants, then you don't actually care about the wellbeing of life on Earth.

The idea he'd give us a brain and then tell us to turn it off and just do what we're instructed is baffling.

Quote:Don't confuse what man identifies as morality and Absolute righteousness as defined by God.

But, dripshit, try to remember that we think your god is a scumbag.... just like his followers.

(January 19, 2016 at 2:04 pm)robvalue Wrote: Morality is all slippery when religion gets involved. Equivocation fallacies galore.

Morality either means "What god wants" or it means "What is best for the wellbeing of life on Earth". You have to pick one, and stick with it. They have nothing to do with each other, except by coincidence. And how do we know when they overlap? Because we understand what hurts and helps people. We have our own standard.

If all you care about is what god wants, then you don't actually care about the wellbeing of life on Earth.

The idea he'd give us a brain and then tell us to turn it off and just do what we're instructed is baffling.

Which is the fundamental flaw of religion it's the followers who only want to help themselves 
and act like they want to help others. It can be seen with the bronze age and crusades the religion 
itself was spread via fear and violence now it's just spread by word of  mouth. What also 
hurts the argument of what god want's is the bible. You have more than enough passages
to guess what god want's but doing so would make the followers void of any cultural morality,
then it really hitting a already dead horse what god want's is immoral and not good for the well being 
for life on this planet. Following the bible like it's moral absolute let's take away the laws that keep  people
in check and put in religious law. The truth being we would be no different from the middle east with the exception
we would have slavery which is not good for anyone. Morality and religion cannot  be in the same sentence, all the
person really doing is following a book thinking it's moral absolutes.

(January 19, 2016 at 1:40 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 11:58 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: *Scribbles down this example of a theist arguing against absolute morality*

Don't confuse what man identifies as morality and Absolute righteousness as defined by God.

Morality is a works based system of right and wrong. Something obtainable, which is why the standard/bar of morality is always being lowered. While Perfect Righteousness can only be obtained through redemption.

Religion takes what is in us and twists it into a comic book super hero vs super villain. It is an unfortunate part of our species flawed perceptions. Nobody is "oppressing" you by suggesting you got it wrong and that religion is merely a reflection of ourselves and our own desires.

Now the "system of wright and wrong" is an argument all religions make. If one "system" worked, there would be only one religion. Since there is more than one in reality, then the better consideration isn't that there is a need for religion, but humans making up their own answers as to why good and bad happen.

The God concept as depicted in the god/s of Abraham, reflects the feudal kingships of the time those books were written. It is why it uses words like "kingdom" and "lord" and "master", because back then, that is the rule humans lived under. It has absolutely no reflection to our modern morality of concepts of protecting secular pluralism. At best this god character is willing to tolerate others as long as those non tribe members know their place. AT BEST. 

But most of the time throughout all three books of Abraham, this God either tells his followers to destroy dissent or he kills dissenters himself. I am sure Kim Jong Un will treat you well if you tow the party line and worship him. And at best, if you keep your mouth shut, he'll leave you alone. But if you express any dissent or disagreement to his rule say bye bye to your ass.

I want you to consider that the books were written for the times they reflected. Back then the mortality rate was much higher. And the class system was Royal and warrior, whom were the the bulk of wealth, and the rest of society was virtually poor and expected to do the bidding of the other classes.

I understand my blunt description offends you because you are not used to having an objection to your claims. All of us here simply want you to think about what you believe and be unafraid to be willing to consider you got it wrong. That was then, this is now. Times have changed since those books were written.

(January 19, 2016 at 12:04 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 11:07 am)Drich Wrote: Actually the word sorry verbalizes a wish for penance. To mockingly say it over and over displays a feeling of oppression under an authoritarian rule.. Ironically much like your peer understanding of slavery.

In that case, never ever again come to me in my capacity as Admin for any help whatsoever, since I oppress you.

When have I come to you for help unless I truly felt 'oppressed' by 'someone' on your staff using staff related 'power' in an oppressive way? In other words have I ever come to you crying about any member has said or done? that would mean the only time I ever go to you is because someone on staff is treating me unfairly/threating or banned me.

IF you truly are an admin who doesn't look to oppress it's members, then one would think that personal feelings aside you would look to eliminate oppression where ever it may arise and seek to put an end to it no matter how the battle lines are drawn.. Rather it SEEMS 'justice' is only offered to those in whom you deem 'just.'

IF this is the case, then what will be, will be.

(January 19, 2016 at 2:08 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Don't confuse what man identifies as morality and Absolute righteousness as defined by God.

But, dripshit, try to remember that we think your god is a scumbag.... just like his followers.

Depends, I don't think all believers are "scumbags", but far to many become "scumbags" because of what religion does to logic. I do think religion poisons human's ability to reason to the point they become "scumbags". 

My mom is still Catholic. The only thing I cant stand about that with her is that she believes that a magic cracker will save her soul. And politically speaking, she votes republican, and the horrible part is she agrees with me on everything, up and until I mention party label. My mom is a wonderful person, but I do hate how religion has affected her ability to reason.

I would say to Drich, if you don't like being called a scumbag, then try understanding why we have a problem with with your god character. We won't murder you if you never leave your religion. 

Try looking at our blasphemy as say if you had a friend go see a movie and came back to you and said "I cant believe you liked that movie, it sucked". There is no evil intent in what we are trying to get you to consider. The truth hurts sometimes, but when you face it, you grow.

(January 19, 2016 at 1:43 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 1:40 pm)Drich Wrote: Don't confuse what man identifies as morality and Absolute righteousness as defined by God.

Morality is a works based system of right and wrong. Something obtainable, which is why the standard/bar of morality is always being lowered. While Perfect Righteousness can only be obtained through redemption.

So did God have to go through a redemption of some sort?

He wouldn't have to but he did so that he may share His righteousness with us.

(January 19, 2016 at 2:28 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 19, 2016 at 12:04 pm)Stimbo Wrote: In that case, never ever again come to me in my capacity as Admin for any help whatsoever, since I oppress you.

When have I come to you for help unless I truly felt 'oppressed' by 'someone' on your staff using staff related 'power' in an oppressive way? In other words have I ever come to you crying about any member has said or done? that would mean the only time I ever go to you is because someone on staff is treating me unfairly/threating or banned me.

IF you truly are an admin who doesn't look to oppress it's members, then one would think that personal feelings aside you would look to eliminate oppression where ever it may arise and seek to put an end to it no matter how the battle lines are drawn.. Rather it SEEMS 'justice' is only offered to those in whom you deem 'just.'

IF this is the case, then what will be, will be.

Drich, I just got done telling you to leave me alone. You are dead to me. Now stay buried.