Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: November 17, 2024, 5:37 pm

Poll: Did Jesus of Nazareth exist as an historical person?
This poll is closed.
Yes, absolutely; like Julius Caesar.
18.03%
11 18.03%
Probably.
19.67%
12 19.67%
Unknown.
24.59%
15 24.59%
Not probably.
19.67%
12 19.67%
Definitively not.
18.03%
11 18.03%
Total 61 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Did Jesus exist?
#81
RE: Did Jesus exist?
The docetic heresy was declared a fair bit closer to jesus timeline (when is that, again, btw, lol) than the 20th century.  There were people, contemporary to the accounts, who believed that jesus was not a man.  If there were not, it would not have been declared heresy, nor would the account have garnered any attention whatsoever, to be declared a forgery by opposed dogmatics (what does that mean, in context, that one magic man story is less genuine than another, btw?).    

Here again you see that the situation you are looking for did exist, at that time..but again, that doesn't tell us much about the historicity of the character jesus.  All of this pertains only to the workings of a body which operated under the assumption that some collection of these accounts were true, and how they responded to counter or competing claims.

I think that researchers in the 20th century have a better chance at determining what was or was not historical than researchers have had at any other time.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#82
RE: Did Jesus exist?
(January 28, 2016 at 4:07 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
(January 28, 2016 at 9:23 am)Jehanne Wrote: The Gospels are filled with legendary, embellished material.  Even William Lane Craig acknowledges this fact with respect to Matthew 27, going so far as to say that Matthew was not writing literal history.  Of course, Craig is a fool; very little historical information can be gleaned from the Gospels, but they all, clearly, point to an epileptic revolutionary with delusions of grandeur, Jesus of Nazareth.

And does the Iliad point to a pissed-off archer named Apollo?

Quote: So he prayed, and Phoebus Apollo heard him. Down he came, in fury, from the heights of Olympus, with his bow and inlaid quiver at his back. The arrows rattled at his shoulder as the god descended like the night, in anger. He set down by the ships, and fired a shaft, with a fearful twang of his silver bow. First he attacked the mules, and the swift hounds, then loosed his vicious darts at the men; so the dense pyres for the dead burned endlessly.

For nine days the god’s arrows fell on the army, and on the tenth Achilles, his heart stirred by the goddess, white-armed Hera, called them to the Place of Assembly, she pitying the Danaans, whose deaths she witnessed.


You've got to watch the special pleading Jehanne.  It is not "different" because you think it is about your godboy.

I'm an atheist.  That a religious loon named Jesus of Nazareth existed is an historical fact.  Do you believe that George Washington existed?
Reply
#83
RE: Did Jesus exist?
(January 28, 2016 at 9:17 pm)Jehanne Wrote:
(January 28, 2016 at 4:07 pm)Minimalist Wrote: And does the Iliad point to a pissed-off archer named Apollo?



You've got to watch the special pleading Jehanne.  It is not "different" because you think it is about your godboy.

I'm an atheist.  That a religious loon named Jesus of Nazareth existed is an historical fact.  Do you believe that George Washington existed?

To be fair, George Washington had better evidence for his existence than Jesus. You can't compare the two.
Reply
#84
RE: Did Jesus exist?
(January 28, 2016 at 10:56 am)dyresand Wrote:
(January 28, 2016 at 9:19 am)Jehanne Wrote: I think that he was a religious loon, a total nut-job.  But, yes, the "Jesus didn't exist" meme, IMHO, needs to be expunged from the atheistic consciousness.

There is no historical fact that a guy named jesus lived and the damning fact of the matter is no one has the birth date of the guy 
no has evidence of mary.

Tacitus was a careful Roman historian.  Considering the synoptic sources, Q, the Gospel of John, the writings of Paul and the other New Testament authors (most of whom are unknown), it is an extraordinary "leap of faith" to say that there was not a certain personage, an epileptic preacher with delusions of grandeur, Jesus of Nazareth.
Reply
#85
RE: Did Jesus exist?
(January 28, 2016 at 9:17 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I'm an atheist.  That a religious loon named Jesus of Nazareth existed is an historical fact.  Do you believe that George Washington existed?

Must be the sort of fact that you establish by repetition rather than demonstration, eh? It is an extraordinary leap of faith to say that there was not a certain personage, a murderous strongman with delusions of granduer, Hercules.

Tell me how this is more than modern day euhemerism? What we have in those sources is a history of a people who believe, and what they believe..... not a history of jesus, or any "certain personage".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#86
RE: Did Jesus exist?
(January 28, 2016 at 9:20 pm)Irrational Wrote:
(January 28, 2016 at 9:17 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I'm an atheist.  That a religious loon named Jesus of Nazareth existed is an historical fact.  Do you believe that George Washington existed?

To be fair, George Washington had better evidence for his existence than Jesus. You can't compare the two.

Of course, but my point is that the historical evidence for an historical figure named "Jesus" who came from "Nazareth" has reached a 'critical mass', that is, it is not reasonable to doubt that he existed.  Why do the overwhelming number of scholars believe in an historical Jesus?
Reply
#87
RE: Did Jesus exist?
I would just say absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There is not much documented history 2000 years old, and much has been destroyed. There are lot of things that have happened which we will never know of.
Reply
#88
RE: Did Jesus exist?
(January 28, 2016 at 9:24 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
(January 28, 2016 at 9:17 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I'm an atheist.  That a religious loon named Jesus of Nazareth existed is an historical fact.  Do you believe that George Washington existed?

Must be the sort of fact that you establish by repetition rather than demonstration, eh?  It is an extraordinary leap of faith to say that there was not a certain personage, a murderous strongman with delusions of granduer, Hercules.

Tell me how this is more than modern day euhemerism?

Which historical documents do you have for the existence of Hercules?  Do you believe that Jesus Caesar existed?  That he crossed the Rubicon?
Reply
#89
RE: Did Jesus exist?
(January 28, 2016 at 9:29 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Which historical documents do you have for the existence of Hercules? 

Moot point as it's the very question we're considering.  We have the stories, we have the opinions of scholars contemporary to the stories (and the many centuries that followed).  Euhemeris proposes for the greek myths what you propose now for the christian myths.  This is an old notion. It hasn't, in all of the time since Euhemeris, advanced an iota by evidentiary standards. Conceptually there's nothing wrong with the contention, but if we're looking for historicity, or a brute fact of history, we're looking for more than a concept.


Quote: Do you believe that Jesus Caesar existed?  That he crossed the Rubicon?

I don't believe anything about Ceaser.  I don't know whether he crossed the rubicon or not.  If someone wants me to assign a truth level to that statement they'll need to support it, just as the historicity of jesus must be supported.  Not by the history of belief and believers, not by criticism of straw, in it's own right.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#90
RE: Did Jesus exist?
(January 28, 2016 at 9:17 pm)Jehanne Wrote:
(January 28, 2016 at 4:07 pm)Minimalist Wrote: And does the Iliad point to a pissed-off archer named Apollo?



You've got to watch the special pleading Jehanne.  It is not "different" because you think it is about your godboy.

I'm an atheist.  That a religious loon named Jesus of Nazareth existed is an historical fact.  Do you believe that George Washington existed?

Actually, it isn't, there are a lot of experts who doubt the existence of Jesus.
There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide mankind that cannot be achieved as well or better through secular means.
Bitch at my blog! Follow me on Twitter! Subscribe to my YouTube channel!
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
Brick If everything has a purpose then evil doesn't exist zwanzig 738 63154 June 28, 2023 at 10:48 am
Last Post: emjay
  Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims zwanzig 177 24530 June 9, 2021 at 11:14 am
Last Post: John 6IX Breezy
  Did Jesus ever have a perm? Cod 32 5796 April 3, 2019 at 11:03 am
Last Post: Silver
  Why did the Jews lie about Jesus? Fake Messiah 65 7686 March 28, 2019 at 5:32 pm
Last Post: Aliza
  Did Jesus decompose? Natachan 77 7993 March 26, 2019 at 8:18 pm
Last Post: fredd bear
  Did Jesus call the Old Testament God the Devil, a Murderer and the Father of Lies? dude1 51 10467 November 6, 2018 at 12:46 pm
Last Post: Angrboda
  How long did Jesus spend in Hell? Gawdzilla Sama 43 8529 February 5, 2018 at 2:15 am
Last Post: Abaddon_ire
  On this world if humans ceased to exist would god cease to exist? brewer 58 14057 November 24, 2017 at 3:17 am
Last Post: pocaracas
  Did Jesus Christ ever tell a joke ? The Wise Joker 12 3118 January 31, 2017 at 11:37 am
Last Post: Crossless2.0
  Jesus did not rise from the dead -- My debate opening statement. Jehanne 155 30144 January 21, 2017 at 1:28 am
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd



Users browsing this thread: 4 Guest(s)