(February 25, 2011 at 12:57 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: We use the terms 'before', 'after', 'at a certain time' because we are referencing the atemporal from a temporal perspective.

explain what you mean then.

(February 25, 2011 at 12:57 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: We use the terms 'before', 'after', 'at a certain time' because we are referencing the atemporal from a temporal perspective.

Its nonsence talk frods. The atemporal cannot exist wherever it is referenced from, especially a being which would have less life than a frozen rock (ie at least that would erode)

'Time' cannot restrict the atemporal - because atemporal = timeless/ unnafected by time.

Before, after, any mid point are our time restricted references. Atemporaly all of these points merge into one. Assume we are atemporal entities. You and I look at all time on one glance. There is no future or past for us. All of those temporal events appear at once. > There is no time.

Jees... did you guys never watch Star Trek!!!

Quote:Jees... did you guys never watch Star Trek!!!

Of course....and like your bible, it's fiction.

(February 25, 2011 at 3:09 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Before, after, any mid point are our time restricted references.

My point is that the terms "before" and "after" are temporal terms. So it makes no sense to say that anything exists "before" or "after" time since that equates to saying "the time before time" or "the time after time". It equates to nonsense.

Quote:Assume we are atemporal entities. You and I look at all time on one glance. There is no future or past for us. All of those temporal events appear at once. > There is no time.

We can't do anything if we are atemporal. To do something requires at least two moments, it requires time.

(February 25, 2011 at 1:02 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote:

(February 25, 2011 at 12:57 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: We use the terms 'before', 'after', 'at a certain time' because we are referencing the atemporal from a temporal perspective.

Its nonsence talk frods. The atemporal cannot exist wherever it is referenced from, especially a being which would have less life than a frozen rock (ie at least that would erode)

It is not only scientifically nonsense, but it is also biblically unsound. God is the "Alpha and the omega' (the beginning and the end). To say that God is outside of time is to say that god was lying when he claimed to be the Alpha and the Omega.

(February 25, 2011 at 3:09 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: 'Time' cannot restrict the atemporal - because atemporal = timeless/ unnafected by time.

Before, after, any mid point are our time restricted references. Atemporaly all of these points merge into one. Assume we are atemporal entities. You and I look at all time on one glance. There is no future or past for us. All of those temporal events appear at once. > There is no time.

Jees... did you guys never watch Star Trek!!!

Again frods this is make believe stuff. No time is no change, beings have to experience change to be beings. Thinking, acting, creating, doing anything requires a before and after. Imagining I am atemporal and looking at the whole of time is impossible as I would need to imagine my non existence as a being, whilst at the same time existing with internal processes enabling me to observe. The whole concept is wooly, xtian philosophical babble; to put an imagined god into a place where he can't be touched by reason nor science. But there is no analogy that gets you there...even star trek.

Religious people make their biggest mistakes by using ANY of these on the following list:

mathematics
places
dates (times)
statements of fact
biological statements
referencing other religious books

For the most part, when religious texts use ANY of the mentioned list, they wind up screwing up REALLY bad, like not getting pi correct, getting the dates and places wrong for events, shiwing their ignorance of basic biology, and referencing books that either never existed or was later burnt as heretical. Mistakes in all of these lists SCREAMS that said writting is fictional, and quickly made up on the spot to go along with then current popularities. When someone slows down and actually inspectes the writtings for historicity, they find MANY inconsistencies, or supporting of urban legends of the time, etc..

(February 25, 2011 at 3:52 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: My point is that the terms "before" and "after" are temporal terms. So it makes no sense to say that anything exists "before" or "after" time since that equates to saying "the time before time" or "the time after time". It equates to nonsense.

For us as temporal beings, no.

(February 25, 2011 at 3:52 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: We can't do anything if we are atemporal. To do something requires at least two moments, it requires time.

Do something temporal, yes.

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(February 25, 2011 at 4:00 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: It is not only scientifically nonsense, but it is also biblically unsound. God is the "Alpha and the omega' (the beginning and the end). To say that God is outside of time is to say that god was lying when he claimed to be the Alpha and the Omega.

Rot. The bible also quotes God as saying "I am" ...or he 'just is'. God is throughout time, as well as outside time... its perfectly consistent.

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(February 26, 2011 at 12:01 am)Captain Scarlet Wrote: Again frods this is make believe stuff. No time is no change, beings have to experience change to be beings. Thinking, acting, creating, doing anything requires a before and after. Imagining I am atemporal and looking at the whole of time is impossible as I would need to imagine my non existence as a being, whilst at the same time existing with internal processes enabling me to observe.

Problem with all of that.... God isn't a 'being', and is never proposed to be that in our (mainstream Christian') theology.

(February 26, 2011 at 5:21 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Rot. The bible also quotes God as saying "I am" ...or he 'just is'. God is throughout time, as well as outside time... its perfectly consistent.

Problem with all of that.... God isn't a 'being', and is never proposed to be that in our (mainstream Christian') theology.

Yeah. Its perfectly consistent with the reading that my bullshit meter is showing me. It's says the bullshit is getting thick, corny, and rancid. Why stop there? Why not say he is inside out of time as well, and sideways in time, and Pacific time... God is so awesome powerful and stuff..except he cant even make a human eye without leaving the veins all over the optic nerves (which is like a video camera with power cords crossing over the lense) and makes the vision so weak that the brain has to resort to halucination and guess work to make up for the difference in lost vision...but god is outside of and inside of time...how convenient for you to pick something that you do not have to produce a shred of evidence to prove or disprove. I heard God can also reach the 721st dimension where there is no need for a deity to create life or worlds. That life on that dimension arises spontaneously and most of their life forms evolve to become god like entities to go off and create universes of their own. Why stop there? since we are making shit up there is no boundary.

If God is all powerful, then he can create an infinite amount of infinitely powerful deities.

Creating an infinite amount of infinitely powerful deities is a requirement of an infinitely powerful deity to exist.

Existense and non-existence (god is not a being) is also a requirement for an infinitely powerful deity to exist.

Therefore there are an infinite amount of infinitely powerful deities that exist and do not exist at the same time.

The scientific terminology for infinite also equates with ZERO

Therefore no gods exist.

Therefore God dwells in the Shoots and ladders world with all of the Smurfs and Kobolds.