(February 8, 2016 at 6:53 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: I'm pretty sure claiming "consciousness, therefore god" is an argument from ignorance, but I'm not sure that's the best way to respond. I know there must be a proper name for this argument but I either can't remember what that name is, or I've not heard the name used before. I've personally mainly been tackling the biological and psychical (e.g. astronomy/cosmology) arguments against religion. I find biology and physics more interesting and, as a result, I feel as though I've neglected the psychological side of things.

A religionist may say "How did we get from clumps of sub-atomic particles/atoms/cells to being conscious?" That would be where the "argument from ignorance" comes in. But I think that's too simplistic an answer. Or maybe I'm over thinking this.

Perhaps it is just best to say "I don't know" in relation to consciousness. Just like the only honest answer to the creation of our universe is "I don't know" (because it's arrogant to claim otherwise). I'll be interested to see how consciousness affects the many-worlds interpretation (if it is proven), but that's something we're far away from learning about right now.

Some context:

I needed a good laugh to cheer me up, so I went looking for more "I'm totally not an Islamist but I used to be a member of Hizb ut-Tahrir and I'm reluctant to condemn them" Hamza Tzortis - something I do from time to time (though less often now). His newest video, "I Am an Atheist" proves God!, was very confusing and incoherent but it at least got me thinking about consciousness. The video was full of jargon and doublespeak (which I am sure his cheer-squad don't understand either, even though they may pretend otherwise) and it made very little sense to me as a result - so I suggest not watching it. N.B. Hamza claims this argument is not "god of the gaps" but I'm pretty sure it is because it relies on us not fully understanding consciousness.

"Consciousness, therefore god" is essentially Vitalism, the idea that because we are alive that there must be something which differentiates us from non living things. What those people are arguing is Cartesian dualism, which itself stems from early christianity's incomplete adoption of Neoplatonism, especially the idea (which a full reading of Plato will show he later discarded) that there is a soul separate from the body which is the seat of consciousness.

What you really need to do here, is show anybody who uses this argument all the data and experimentation which shows that consciousness is simply an emergent property of the complexity of the human brain, and the complicatedness (complex and complicated are related but not the same, for example Langton's Ant is complex without being complicated) of the constituent parts of the brain. And this is further reinforced and magnified by the nature, size and complexity of human societies. If you build a thinking engine big enough, sophisticated enough and network it into a good number of similar engines, then you'll likely get machine intelligence.

(February 8, 2016 at 6:58 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: Repeatedly slam them into a tree while screaming 'yeah yeah that's the ticket.'

If soemone says to you consciousness, therefore god, the correct response is idiot. Maybe ignorant idiot, if you're in a generous mood.

My response would be "Cheese is delicious, therefore fuck off and leave me alone."

If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best way to respond?

How about, "anything whatsoever, therefore god"? Kind of random in either case.

(February 10, 2016 at 8:13 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Why are you seeking excuses instead of accepting the obvious. That consciousness is spiritual and magical, not metaphorically, but really is.

No it fucking well is not. More and more with scientific experimentation and discovery are we mapping our consciousness into the fabric of our brain. There is no outside force or spirit which makes up our consciousness, our being, it is simply a part of our mind, a function of our complexity.

Primitive and outmoded concept on a crutch, child, are you an absolute idiot. You are so stupid that I doubt that you possess the manual dexterity to even operate the computer at which you sit, and you have to dictate your imbecilic rantings at a poor person in order that they can type them up onto the website.

(February 10, 2016 at 8:13 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: That consciousness is spiritual and magical, not metaphorically, but really is.

No, No, and NO. There is nothing at all that is "supernatural" or "magical" about  the consciousness of the brain.





The argument of consciousness falls apart when one questions just how MUCH consciousness equals god. We have examples at every level from an amoeba to Einstein. A dog's or cat's brain works exactly the same as ours, only at a less evolved level. Our brain is comprised of billions of cells and the quality of consciousness that we enjoy depends on the cooperation and health of these cells.

Our consciousness is very akin to a computer program that evolved to write itself, and the wild variation of our consciousness is testament to it's ancestry.  Computers who are given a program all run it in the exact same way, but our brain variation is so extreme that no two humans who have ever lived have thought exactly alike. Thus there is no god handing out "consciousness. No god at all.

I see you've started throwing the word "magical" around now MK. Would you care to define what that means?

Rob, MK is a nice guy but he's a true soldier of God.
Non of our science propaganda will ever get through.

Don't you love how theists only understand binary thought.
eg: prove it .... or GOD! Why does this do this? ...therefore God, Blue sky? why not pink, therefore God.

(February 14, 2016 at 3:22 am)robvalue Wrote: I see you've started throwing the word "magical" around now MK. Would you care to define what that means?

I'd like to write a non-fiction book by Turtley expert "Mikey "The Turtleboy"" called:

"Making Sense of Magic".

I'd like to pretend I was making sense of it up until like the last chapter where my words gradually get more and more garbled and I seem to be having a nervous breakdown and start saying stuff like "HOW THE FUCK CAN MAGIC MAKE SENSE! Next you'll be telling me that it makes sense that my earlobes belong to the Velociraptor that stole my tea and scones last Tuesday!"

The whole idea of making sense of magic makes no sense, if it could make sense it wouldn't be magic.

MK, to believe in magic is literally the most illogical thing to believe in ever.