(March 12, 2016 at 6:01 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(March 12, 2016 at 5:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, I believe He knows what we will choose. But that doesn't mean He is responsible for us choosing it, or forcing us to choose it. He knows that even though we all make immoral choices at times, in the end, the good of having free will is going to outweigh the bad. That's why He set it up like that.

If I knew my toddler son will choose to wander out onto a freeway, and I did nothing, would i not be complicit in his death?

Are we not toddlers compared to your god and your devil?

I don't know what we are compared to God. 

The difference between a human parent running out to grab their toddler son off the street, and God changing things that would naturally happen, is that for God to do it would require divine intervention. And like Tibs said, you start getting into a slippery slope. Why didn't God stop the toddler from getting hit by a car? Why didn't God stop my brother from getting severe food poisoning last week? Why didn't God prevent me from stubbing my toe? If God were to prevent every negative thing that were about to happen, we wouldn't have free will anymore.

(March 12, 2016 at 6:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 12, 2016 at 6:01 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: If I knew my toddler son will choose to wander out onto a freeway, and I did nothing, would i not be complicit in his death?

Are we not toddlers compared to your god and your devil?

I don't know what we are compared to God. 

The difference between a human parent running out to grab their toddler son off the street, and God changing things that would naturally happen, is that for God to do it would require divine intervention. And like Tibs said, you start getting into a slippery slope. Why didn't God stop the toddler from getting hit by a car? Why didn't God stop my brother from getting severe food poisoning last week? Why didn't God prevent me from stubbing my toe? If God were to prevent every negative thing that were about to happen, we wouldn't have free will anymore.

So.... conceptually... what's the difference between a non-interventionalist god and a non-existent god?

(March 12, 2016 at 6:53 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(March 12, 2016 at 6:49 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't know what we are compared to God. 

The difference between a human parent running out to grab their toddler son off the street, and God changing things that would naturally happen, is that for God to do it would require divine intervention. And like Tibs said, you start getting into a slippery slope. Why didn't God stop the toddler from getting hit by a car? Why didn't God stop my brother from getting severe food poisoning last week? Why didn't God prevent me from stubbing my toe? If God were to prevent every negative thing that were about to happen, we wouldn't have free will anymore.

So.... conceptually... what's the difference between a non-interventionalist god and a non-existent god?

Well, you're asking a theist that lol. If God didn't exist I don't think anything would exist at all.

(March 12, 2016 at 7:24 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 12, 2016 at 6:53 pm)pocaracas Wrote: So.... conceptually... what's the difference between a non-interventionalist god and a non-existent god?

Well, you're asking a theist that lol. If God didn't exist I don't think anything would exist at all.

You think wrong, Very very very very wrong

(March 12, 2016 at 7:24 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 12, 2016 at 6:53 pm)pocaracas Wrote: So.... conceptually... what's the difference between a non-interventionalist god and a non-existent god?

Well, you're asking a theist that lol. If God didn't exist I don't think anything would exist at all.

There is no evidence that supports that.

(March 12, 2016 at 7:38 pm)Chas Wrote:

(March 12, 2016 at 7:24 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well, you're asking a theist that lol. If God didn't exist I don't think anything would exist at all.

There is no evidence that supports that.

Ok. Never said there was.

(March 12, 2016 at 7:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 12, 2016 at 7:38 pm)Chas Wrote: There is no evidence that supports that.

Ok. Never said there was.

I've got the toenail clippings of Saint Peter, which can protect you and your family from further attacks of food poisoning.

Don't believe me? Why not?

You don't know me all too well, but you do know me a lot better than you ever did the apostle Paul.

(March 12, 2016 at 12:29 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think the case with God and his signs, is that God is manifestation of his signs and his signs are also manifestations of God. They have this double relationship.

The signs point to God precisely because God is what reveals them and manifests them.

circles are bad

(March 12, 2016 at 7:55 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 12, 2016 at 12:29 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think the case with God and his signs, is that God is manifestation of his signs and his signs are also manifestations of God. They have this double relationship.

The signs point to God precisely because God is what reveals them and manifests them.

circles are bad

Do you what 'if and only if' means? It's a double implication. It's used in university a lot regarding math laws for example.

(March 12, 2016 at 5:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, I believe He knows what we will choose. But that doesn't mean He is responsible for us choosing it, or forcing us to choose it. He knows that even though we all make immoral choices at times, in the end, the good of having free will is going to outweigh the bad. That's why He set it up like that.

If we are to have a personal and meaningful relationship with God, then our actions have to be meaningful. Christians often say things like "When it's your time to go, it's your time to go." But if God sees all, even through time, then it's also "When it's your time to have a shit, it's your time to have a shit." Everything is known by God.

Okay, so it's known by God if/when you will pray, if/when sinners will repent, if/when heretics will fall back in line with the Catholic dogma, etc. It will never, ever turn out other than God already knows it will turn out.

I'm not sure you know what free will means.