(March 13, 2016 at 7:04 am)Alex K Wrote: @Harris

Eugenics is basically applying the principles of livestock breeding to humans. These ideas predate Darwin by millenia and have little or nothing  to do with the theory of evolution. One has to seriously misunderstand and misinterpret what scientific theories like the ToE are to think that it leads to Eugenics.

“Darwinism by itself did not produce the Holocaust, but without Darwinism... neither Hitler nor his Nazi followers would have had the necessary scientific underpinnings to convince themselves and their collaborators that one of the world’s greatest atrocities was really morally praiseworthy.”

Richard Weikart,
From Darwin to Hitler:
Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany

Source:
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/eugenics

(March 13, 2016 at 12:44 pm)little_monkey Wrote: I think you've failed to comprehend the part in which I said, "science is not going to give all the answers, and those answers it provides are under temporary notice - should new evidence be discovered than those answers might be altered."  

I'm not blaming you, perhaps I didn't explain myself enough. Humans are prone to error. Scientists are human, therefore they will err. Religious people are humans, and therefore are prone to err too. But here's the difference. In science there is an inbuilt mechanism in case it is wrong - it's called empirical evidence - if the theory can't explain the facts then the theory needs change, and in some cases be abandoned totally to be replaced by a new theory. But religion doesn't have that feature: it takes its beliefs and morality as eternal, immutable, universal, sacred. But what if it's wrong? They are hundreds of religions on this planet, not counting those who have disappeared. So which one has the truth? Which one has the right morality? On what basis are you going to make those decisions that will distinguish the true religion from all the others? The answer is you have none. Your religion is basically determined from where you were born, who were your parents/guardians, which school you went, and so on, but there is no inbuilt mechanism in your religion for you to use.

You are expressing your thoughts in definite manner and I do not have any difficulty in understanding them. We have somewhat conflicting ideas about the existence of God which has nothing to do with comprehending each other.

I totally agree with the idea that people are “prone to errors.” However, we should not overlook the difference between a person who makes a mistake inadvertently and repent soon after realizing it and people who try to rationalise their mistakes to justify their criminal acts.

“Darwinism by itself did not produce the Holocaust, but without Darwinism... neither Hitler nor his Nazi followers would have had the necessary scientific underpinnings to convince themselves and their collaborators that one of the world’s greatest atrocities was really morally praiseworthy.”

Richard Weikart,
From Darwin to Hitler:
Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany

I also agree that people do have hard time in making their choice between God or no God.

If God, then which God?
If no God, then what?

There are many reasons behind this confusion but here I highlight only one.

Majority of people are least interested to know about God or about their own existence. That is because all their efforts are concentrated over making their lives comfortable, joyful, and pleasurable. This attitude pushes people to egocentric behaviour and once a person is self-centred then he/she lost the ability to see anything else than his/her own being.

Instead of explaining why people are confused let me explain it through the question why am I a Muslim. Why not atheist, Buddhist, etc.?

If I am a Muslim that is because of my own conscious and intentional choice and no culture in the world has forced me to be a Muslim. I think I have sufficient knowledge about the physical world, about the morals, and about different religions and that knowledge helped me in making a considerate choice.

Here I mention couple of reasons for my being Muslim:

1. Quran is the only literature (scripture) in the world that is not yet corrupted in about 1,500 years. I count it no less than a miracle.

“We have, without doubt, sent down the Message (Quran); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).”
Al Hijr (15)
-Verse 9-

2. Quran does not have:

a.   Historical errors
b.   Scientific errors
c.   Mathematical errors
d.   Contradictory texts
e.   Discrepancies &
f.    Evidences that may confirm human writings

“Do they not consider the Quran (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 82-

I can give numerous rational reasons but I think what I have written above is sufficient to make my point clear.

Eugenics is not "science". You are off your rocker.

Science is a tool. It doesn't provide goals. If you want to kill people, you can use science to find the most effective way. If you want to help people, same thing.

Trying to emulate a natural model and basing your morality on it is a moral choice (a very stupid one in my opinion) and again has nothing to do with science. You can use science, as a tool, to do it. Blaming science is like blaming the gun for a murder.

It makes me sad how religion produces this kind of anti-intellectualism.

(March 15, 2016 at 5:08 am)Harris Wrote:

(March 13, 2016 at 7:04 am)Alex K Wrote: @Harris

Eugenics is basically applying the principles of livestock breeding to humans. These ideas predate Darwin by millenia and have little or nothing  to do with the theory of evolution. One has to seriously misunderstand and misinterpret what scientific theories like the ToE are to think that it leads to Eugenics.

“Darwinism by itself did not produce the Holocaust, but without Darwinism... neither Hitler nor his Nazi followers would have had the necessary scientific underpinnings to convince themselves and their collaborators that one of the world’s greatest atrocities was really morally praiseworthy.”

Richard Weikart,
From Darwin to Hitler:
Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany

Source:
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/eugenics

Well, what can I say, he is wrong...

Indeed. What utter crap.

How hard is it to say, "I think people should be [like this]. Let's kill people who aren't."

What subject do you have to study exactly before becoming a genocidal maniac?

Even ignoring that Hitler did not accept Darwinian Evolution to begin with, evolutionary theory didn't provide the scientific underpinnings of racism or the holocaust - I don't even think there are scientific underpinnings to that, only ideological ones, provided by racist ideologues like H.S. Chamberlain and Henry Ford.

Oh, Weikart is with the Disco Tute. That explains where he got his brain fried... Lying about evolution for Jesus, such a noble endeavour.

I'm sure killing people different to you has been going on as long as humans have.

Can anyone really believe that scientific theory can not just motivate but actually make possible such things?

I find it really hard to accept someone can be so out of tune with reality. But I guess if you've been brainwashed with propaganda before you learn how to speak, your thinking has been done for you and it takes a real effort to try and break out.

This guy's a Muslim, but same difference. Lying for Allah.

(March 15, 2016 at 5:29 am)robvalue Wrote: I'm sure killing people different to you has been going on as long as humans have.

Can anyone really believe that scientific theory can not just motivate but actually make possible such things?

I find it really hard to accept someone can be so out of tune with reality. But I guess if you've been brainwashed with propaganda before you learn how to speak, your thinking has been done for you and it takes a real effort to try and break out.

You know, in principle it would have been possible that a scientific insight into biology told us that mixing different "races" of humans has catastrophic effects. But not only is that simply untrue (quite the opposite, actually), but evolutionary theory doesn't say anything to that effect. Let alone that one should kill people. It also doesn't say that black people or jews are this way or that way compared to "Caucasians" - you'd have to fantasize or lie to derive that from the actual science, and that's what people did. Evolutionary theory tells us that we are closely related and basically the same, and that's why Hitler didn't like it.

(March 15, 2016 at 5:29 am)robvalue Wrote: This guy's a Muslim, but same difference. Lying for Allah.

I didn't accuse Harris of lying in this case, although he has exhibited a more than tenuous grasp of scholarly ethics in recent days - I was referring to the author of the book he quoted who should know better.

Ah, OK.

He's getting his information from an infidel?