(April 10, 2016 at 3:00 am)robvalue Wrote: Goosebumps: You are welcome to ask whatever questions you wish

I applaud you for taking a genuine interested and trying to understand. Not everyone does.

The pain... no, it's not physical. It is very hard to describe. It's like my brain is being hurt. The very essence of "me" is being stabbed repeatedly. It's a "pain" you can't pinpoint, or do anything to stop. It's like you're being attacked from the inside, from something that is already past any defences you have. This is my experience anyway, others may describe it differently.

Yes, the parasite hijacks my internal monologue. It's "another voice", but it disguises itself as being my normal voice. It spins things, warps things, and uses exactly what it knows will work to make the thought seem as rational as possible. It took a long time to be able to identify what was a parasite thought, and what wasn't. Because it includes grains of truth, like all good lies, it adds credibility to itself. Identifying it was a breakthrough and a relief; I thought I had simply changed. But the real me had just been subdued.

Reason does help. But when depression is at its worst, the emotional manipulation can overwhelm any logic. I mean, I consider myself a very logical and rational person. But my depression was convincing me (at my worst) that I should leave my wife. I'd somehow be happy if I was alone. I knew it made no sense, and the reasons it gave were convoluted, but the sheer emotional pressure squeezed the logic right out. My wife and I would work through every rational reason, we'd break it all down, but within five minutes my depression was saying, "Yeah but, you'd be happier on your own! It would solve all your problems!"

Looking back, as the strongest I've been since this bout of depression, I can see what it's game was. It wanted to isolate me. That way it would have no other voices of reason to compete with, and it could get on with talking me into killing myself. That's why my advice to depressed people is to pretty much do the opposite of what this parasite tells you. If it wants you isolate yourself, see more people. If it wants you to stay in bed all day, get up. If it wants you to quit your job, throw yourself into it more. I know these things are far more easily said than done. But the parasite does not have your best interest at heart. It's a disease which is trying to ruin you.

Wow, so it's like having another personality only that other personality is basically your twin but a total jerk. So is the only way to identify the jerk from yourself external help? At least in your case?

If not what clues did you find to differentiate your normal thoughts from the depressed ones?

You said they have a flood of emotion with them. Is that chemical? Is that where anti-depressants can come on? 

Also if you take them does it does remove the emotion from the parasites voice but you still have the voice? Wow that's super creepy.

In my case reason does help. A lot.
I'm capable of analyzing the present, how the past has shaped my circumstances and what I have to do to crawl out. Reason is my best armor.

I love your responses, robvalue!

In addition to Rob's and Mama's contris, depression for me is like an ant farm, where I've been digging tunnels, trying to get somewhere, and next thing I know, I've dug my own maze with no way of knowing which direction I came from or where I should go; trying to figure out if there's even a point to getting there.

I'm sloooooowly coming out of the worst episode of my life. Some days are ok; some days are shit. Today was kind of shit, but not unbearable shit.

(April 10, 2016 at 3:09 am)Mamacita Wrote: In my case reason does help. A lot.
I'm capable of analyzing the present, how the past has shaped my circumstances and what I have to do to crawl out. Reason is my best armor.

I love your responses, robvalue!

Do you have to document the past to make sure it squares and your depression voice isn't messing with you? Or is that not even a concern? It's not like a memento scenario lite?

Thanks very much mamacita I like yours very much too, I'm always interested to hear different perspectives and how others' experiences relate to mine.

(April 10, 2016 at 3:08 am)Goosebump Wrote:

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(April 10, 2016 at 3:00 am)robvalue Wrote: Goosebumps: You are welcome to ask whatever questions you wish

I applaud you for taking a genuine interested and trying to understand. Not everyone does.

The pain... no, it's not physical. It is very hard to describe. It's like my brain is being hurt. The very essence of "me" is being stabbed repeatedly. It's a "pain" you can't pinpoint, or do anything to stop. It's like you're being attacked from the inside, from something that is already past any defences you have. This is my experience anyway, others may describe it differently.

Yes, the parasite hijacks my internal monologue. It's "another voice", but it disguises itself as being my normal voice. It spins things, warps things, and uses exactly what it knows will work to make the thought seem as rational as possible. It took a long time to be able to identify what was a parasite thought, and what wasn't. Because it includes grains of truth, like all good lies, it adds credibility to itself. Identifying it was a breakthrough and a relief; I thought I had simply changed. But the real me had just been subdued.

Reason does help. But when depression is at its worst, the emotional manipulation can overwhelm any logic. I mean, I consider myself a very logical and rational person. But my depression was convincing me (at my worst) that I should leave my wife. I'd somehow be happy if I was alone. I knew it made no sense, and the reasons it gave were convoluted, but the sheer emotional pressure squeezed the logic right out. My wife and I would work through every rational reason, we'd break it all down, but within five minutes my depression was saying, "Yeah but, you'd be happier on your own! It would solve all your problems!"

Looking back, as the strongest I've been since this bout of depression, I can see what it's game was. It wanted to isolate me. That way it would have no other voices of reason to compete with, and it could get on with talking me into killing myself. That's why my advice to depressed people is to pretty much do the opposite of what this parasite tells you. If it wants you isolate yourself, see more people. If it wants you to stay in bed all day, get up. If it wants you to quit your job, throw yourself into it more. I know these things are far more easily said than done. But the parasite does not have your best interest at heart. It's a disease which is trying to ruin you.

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Wow, so it's like having another personality only that other personality is basically your twin but a total jerk. So is the only way to identify the jerk from yourself external help? At least in your case?

If not what clues did you find to differentiate your normal thoughts from the depressed ones?

You said they have a flood of emotion with them. Is that chemical? Is that where anti-depressants can come on? 

Also if you take them does it does remove the emotion from the parasites voice but you still have the voice? Wow that's super creepy.

That's a good way of describing it, yes. It's like an evil alter ego. It's hard to remember exactly what led me to recognise it. I think most of the credit goes to my wife, for trying so hard with me to analyse my thoughts. But doing it on your own would be extremely hard I think. You need an objective voice of reason. In many cases this will be professional help for sure. I've had a lot of it, to get where I am.

The clues came by identifying the warped logic the thoughts were using. It was off base. It had some credibility, but always elements of flawed reasoning. It was so much harder at my worst, because almost all my thoughts were like this. They seemed like the norm. It's only as I got better that I could see a contrast, when I started having more healthy thoughts again. I'll be interested to hear how well others relate to this, whether they'd describe it the same way. I don't presume to be a spokesperson for depressed people. I can only talk from experience, and from others I have discussed it with.

The emotion it brings... very hard to explain. The thoughts trying to get me to leave my wife and such, came with a big wave of "motivation", like the parasite was trying to short circuit me and to get me to act before I'd thought about it properly. It also cast dispersions on all the rational thoughts we had developed (my wife and I), telling me I don't really believe them. It was hijacking my sense of belief, that's about the best way I could describe it. Telling me what I believe, regardless of why.

Anti depressants have been crucial for me. I understand people's reluctance to take them. They are serious business. But if they return something of a normal life, I think it's worth it. The way I see them is they give you enough strength to help yourself. Without them, I was drowning. They got my head above water, so I was at least able to "breathe", and to put my efforts into helping myself, rather than simply surviving one moment to the next. I'm still on a very high dose, and I don't dare reduce it yet. It's not long ago I had a terrible episode where I was frantically suicidal, I truly believe I would have killed myself had I gotten the chance.

When I'm doing relatively well, my depression sits in the corner grumbling, like a kid who isn't getting his own way. He doesn't try and attack me too much, because I see it coming. However, when I become vulnerable for any reason, it leaps on me. It uses my altered mental state to manipulate things, twist thoughts and to try and mess with me. I have to very quickly separate it from my other thoughts, or else it can overwhelm me. The worst part is when I know it's the parasite, but I don't have the energy to fight it, and I feel depressed for no particular reason.

So my further advice is to talk to people as much as possible. Let them help you analyse your thoughts. My wife often tells me, "That's your depression talking", and she's almost always right.

(April 10, 2016 at 3:12 am)Goosebump Wrote:

(April 10, 2016 at 3:09 am)Mamacita Wrote: In my case reason does help. A lot.
I'm capable of analyzing the present, how the past has shaped my circumstances and what I have to do to crawl out. Reason is my best armor.

I love your responses, robvalue!

Do you have to document the past to make sure it squares and your depression voice isn't messing with you? Or is that not even a concern? It's not like a memento scenario lite?

No. I know the things that happened and hurt by heart. No need to document. Writing out of inspiration does help, though. : 
I'm a very self aware person. I notice when I'm putting my guard down, and I act on it. You mentioned physical symptoms. I went too long without accepting meds, and some things happened that are somewhat correlated to past traumatic events, and this made me collapse. I'm being normal me (October 2015), chatting with co-workers while the system was down, ignoring my bottled up worries, then bam. Tried to get up. Legs didn't respond. I spent 3 days in the hospital. My heart was racing constantly while there. Trouble breathing. Finally a psychiatrist told me that I have depression (duh) and I need my medication. I said, but beer. He said, meds. After going to therapy, he says I have actual reasons to be like this besides the other stuff (genetics, yey mom and grann), but I'm also self analytical and can help myself. I have forced myself to face my fears. Moved out of a toxic environment. Doing things for myself. Accepting help, because I have to admit, I'm human. Need to stop playing Wonder Woman.

My whole family tree is a clusterfuck of depression. The only one in my close family who doesn't think they are depressed is in denial, in my opinion.

Ate my post!

I would also highly recommend cognitive behaviour therapy to anyone who is depressed.

It's a way of challenging your thoughts, and putting them in order.

It will feel like a dumb waste of time to begin with, but if you stick with it, it can produce amazing results. My most recent bout of it got me from being suicidal on a daily basis to feeling I have a fairly decent grip on things, over several months. And this was the second time I'd been through it, already having been familiar with the techniques.

(April 10, 2016 at 3:30 am)robvalue Wrote: Thanks very much mamacita I like yours very much too, I'm always interested to hear different perspectives and how others' experiences relate to mine.

(April 10, 2016 at 3:08 am)Goosebump Wrote:

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Wow, so it's like having another personality only that other personality is basically your twin but a total jerk. So is the only way to identify the jerk from yourself external help? At least in your case?

If not what clues did you find to differentiate your normal thoughts from the depressed ones?

You said they have a flood of emotion with them. Is that chemical? Is that where anti-depressants can come on? 

Also if you take them does it does remove the emotion from the parasites voice but you still have the voice? Wow that's super creepy.

That's a good way of describing it, yes. It's like an evil alter ego. It's hard to remember exactly what led me to recognise it. I think most of the credit goes to my wife, for trying so hard with me to analyse my thoughts. But doing it on your own would be extremely hard I think. You need an objective voice of reason. In many cases this will be professional help for sure. I've had a lot of it, to get where I am.

The clues came by identifying the warped logic the thoughts were using. It was off base. It had some credibility, but always elements of flawed reasoning. It was so much harder at my worst, because almost all my thoughts were like this. They seemed like the norm. It's only as I got better that I could see a contrast, when I started having more healthy thoughts again. I'll be interested to hear how well others relate to this, whether they'd describe it the same way. I don't presume to be a spokesperson for depressed people. I can only talk from experience, and from others I have discussed it with.

The emotion it brings... very hard to explain. The thoughts trying to get me to leave my wife and such, came with a big wave of "motivation", like the parasite was trying to short circuit me and to get me to act before I'd thought about it properly. It also cast dispersions on all the rational thoughts we had developed (my wife and I), telling me I don't really believe them. It was hijacking my sense of belief, that's about the best way I could describe it. Telling me what I believe, regardless of why.

Anti depressants have been crucial for me. I understand people's reluctance to take them. They are serious business. But if they return something of a normal life, I think it's worth it. The way I see them is they give you enough strength to help yourself. Without them, I was drowning. They got my head above water, so I was at least able to "breathe", and to put my efforts into helping myself, rather than simply surviving one moment to the next. I'm still on a very high dose, and I don't dare reduce it yet. It's not long ago I had a terrible episode where I was frantically suicidal, I truly believe I would have killed myself had I gotten the chance.

When I'm doing relatively well, my depression sits in the corner grumbling, like a kid who isn't getting his own way. He doesn't try and attack me too much, because I see it coming. However, when I become vulnerable for any reason, it leaps on me. It uses my altered mental state to manipulate things, twist thoughts and to try and mess with me. I have to very quickly separate it from my other thoughts, or else it can overwhelm me. The worst part is when I know it's the parasite, but I don't have the energy to fight it, and I feel depressed for no particular reason.

So my further advice is to talk to people as much as possible. Let them help you analyse your thoughts. My wife often tells me, "That's your depression talking", and she's almost always right.

This is all so very alien. My thought out long studied post was eaten so I'll do my best to recreate it but will fail miserably.

So when your normal are you able to reason against the "jerk"? Are you able to have a thought process outside the normal monologue? Or are you actively reasoning against the "jerk" like arguing with yourself?

When your "at my worst" does the "jerk" take over the all the reasoning?

When it makes a claim like "leave her!" does the emotion, this is so weird, is it like a feeling of validation related to the statement? Like if you preferred the one thing over another, you have that pull, that "yes that's what I like" no word feeling associated with it? For example when I solve a problem I feel good about my solution. I feel pride. Is it like that?

As for the drugs, I like the descriptor of the "jerk" sitting in the corner. Does it still have a voice in your monologue? If so is it quieter? Does it lack the emotion you mentioned earlier? What exactly limits it's power? What changes in it's suggestiveness?

Also I wanted to say that up until now I've been a "rub some dirt on it" type guy when it came to hearing "I'm depressed" kinda comments. This is so outside my experience it's totally alien. But I know now I'll never see it that way again. Thanks for that.