A parent has the right to teach their child their religion, but I don't believe it extends to making your child part of that religion. Baptism is more than a meaningless ritual, it initiates you. You shouldn't have to put in the effort to get yourself out of a religion later in life. It should be the other way around once the child is old enough to decide for his or herself.

As mentioned previously, churches get benefits for having more people on the roster. But there are other things too. When I was 16 I was in the hospital and my wristband said "Catholic" so I was visited by priest which made me very uncomfortable. I was an "agnostic" around that time but definitely not a Christian or a Catholic but because I was baptised I got listed that way.

Does the baptism harm the child? Not physically, no. But it in my mind it's a breach of the first ammendement to force them into a religion before they can consent to it. If I died before my parents they could give me a Catholic funeral and even though I'm dead so it would matter, it would be a breach of my wishes.

thinking about it I think you have a very good point there Eilonnwy, I imagine Kyuu would agree that initiation is a bad idea. I can see others have tried to say similar but, something clicked from your post lol. I mostly saw it as just part of the parent teaching about their religion before.

I think my views have changed on this, I would say that baptisim is a bad idea. Because it's not just a ritual or learning it's formal entry into the church and we wouldn't initiate a child into a political party before they are old enough to understand and choose for themselves. So, it sorta crosses the line from teaching to speaking on behalf the childs beleifs and saying 'THIS is what you beleif, start beleiving now'.

(March 27, 2009 at 1:04 pm)Demonaura Wrote: So, it sorta crosses the line from teaching to speaking on behalf the childs beleifs and saying 'THIS is what you beleif, start beleiving now'.

Exactly.

So glad I could help.

I think it depends on what church you're at. Where I grew up, if I was baptised (never was) I wouldn't suddenly be on the members list. In which case I would have no problem with baptism because the issue of inflated member numbers does not exist. The water is simply water and the child can either choose to ignore it or choose to follow god.

Baptism certainly doesn't seem to be an intellectual abuse, for it doesn't persuade anyone to do anything. The baptised person still has all his liberty to make all his decisions whether they are based on faith or reason. And it's not a physical abuse, for it's only a little water going on the head, or in the case of full immersion, like jumping into a pool.

So I don't believe it's an abuse in anyway, at least not by the parents. If the church is depending on it to boost numbers and increase funding, well then, it is a different situation. But the persons doing the abuse are not the parents, but the church leaders.

(March 27, 2009 at 6:06 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Anyone who's been in a near fundamentalist religion (and in many ways I regard the Catholic Church as that) knows that it is more than just water and words ... I had nightmares about burning in fire for well over 10 years after I ceased to believe, I was still affected by it later and only found "peace" when I finally realised I was an atheist. Not trying to be funny but religion (all religions but some more so than others) is a total mindf***!

Kyu

Yes. But as I said its the psychological effect they can have on people. really its just water and words...but if you believe it then it can effect you badly.

For example - it wouldn't have much effect on 'us atheists' would it! Because WE KNOW its bullshit!
Its given meaning that isn't actually there. I think children should know that there's no real meaning its just adults being superstitious religious pricks.

A bit of water and words shouldn't be given any special significance as to believe bullshit - especially potentially harmful bullshit.
Water and words in themselves don't do harm. It's the meaning that is given to them and believed that can scare the crap out of kids.

EvF

I've got no problem with parents baptising their children. They can do whatever they want to their own children as long as it doesn't fall under the category of abuse. Some elements of certain religions can definitely be classified as mental or physical abuse, but i have a hard time calling baptism abuse.

There are lots of things that happen to children before they are old enough to decide for themselves. For example, you don't choose your name. You don't choose where you live. You don't choose what you eat for dinner. That what parents do. When a person is old enough, they can decide to change their name if they find it silly, move where they want if they don't like it, and eat whatever they want. They can even choose to ignore their baptism and call it nonsense.

Baptism is not a violation of anyone's rights.

(March 28, 2009 at 4:43 pm)Meatball Wrote: I've got no problem with parents baptising their children. They can do whatever they want to their own children as long as it doesn't fall under the category of abuse. Some elements of certain religions can definitely be classified as mental or physical abuse, but i have a hard time calling baptism abuse.

There are lots of things that happen to children before they are old enough to decide for themselves. For example, you don't choose your name. You don't choose where you live. You don't choose what you eat for dinner. That what parents do. When a person is old enough, they can decide to change their name if they find it silly, move where they want if they don't like it, and eat whatever they want. They can even choose to ignore their baptism and call it nonsense.

Baptism is not a violation of anyone's rights.

If it's not a violation, is it not indoctrination

(March 28, 2009 at 7:47 pm)bozo Wrote: If it's not a violation, is it not indoctrination

At the risk of being opinionated I would say that if that's true and I was (as I believe I was) indoctrinated then I was violated ... I don't have a problem with that view as I tend to believe that religious indoctrination is psychological abuse (psychological child abuse in my case since it was done to me as a child but I may be going too far there).

Kyu

(March 27, 2009 at 9:46 am)Rockthatpiano06 Wrote: that's true too, giff. Either way I've always held the believe (even when I was a christian) that I wouldn't baptise my children until they were old enough to choose, because otherwise it really means nothing. I wanted them to be able to discover things on their own. I still think that now, although I'd try to steer them away from religion all together :p And no, I spelt baptise wrong, haha!

Good to know that i spelled right!

Anyway I think that your opinion is very good, it's the same that I self have. Children shouldn't be baptised since it's a religious ritual and they can't make the decision by themselves.

It's just as simple as that.

The ritual part was the part that had no meaning for me, birthdays are rituals, as is celebrating christmas with your child.

The only thing that's really different is that birthdays don't sign you up for a political party and put you on anyones lists.

I generally hold telling a child what they beleive in terms of religion and such as improper, I don't know about abuse because it is not universally a bad thing, only bad by my definition. I see reality as worth fighting for but, a society where ignorance is bliss (religion) is not a crime.