(May 9, 2016 at 10:28 am)Red_Wind Wrote: Because you can ask an informed atheist a bunch of questions regarding their lack of belief and they would be able to answer them in a logical way. Ask a theist of any religion the same questions regarding their beliefs and they will either give you word salad, circular reasoning or unsupported claims (just to name a few).

Yeah, that's one that's become very apparent to me since I joined this site... the whole playing chess with a pigeon thing. It just makes it all the more clear that it's psychology that you're dealing with - people's rationalisations etc - rather than any real solid arguments. If it was solid reasoning it wouldn't require devious (wilful or not) methods to debate.

(May 9, 2016 at 11:11 am)Emjay Wrote:

(May 9, 2016 at 9:50 am)Whateverist the White Wrote: I spend much more time trying to imagine how anyone could believe in God/gods than in looking for reasons not to.  I think god belief must have served a purpose but the bible just couldn't be any less useful.  The origins of religious experience interest me but I have zero temptation to join a society of bible worshipers.  If you think the bible is your ticket into the mysteries you're basically just screwed.

It's not like this for me all the time, just occasionally. Most of the time I operate from a much more positive position like you of asking what possible reasons there are to believe - and there aren't any that come to mind, but since I have this Christian baggage occasionally I have doubts. But it's only because I have knowledge of the religion that I haven't 'unlearned' (not sure if you can unlearn anything per se)... I don't have similar doubts about any of the countless other religions I have no knowledge of. So it's just the doubts that come from the fact that once something is posited it exists in a sense to be disproved.

I'm afraid atheism (or, more accurately I should say "a secular worldview") isn't going to ever free you from doubt because 1) social programming you received in religious ideology is deeply entrenched in your thought-processes, and must be actively recognized (not always possible) in order to be overridden by your rational brain, and 2) there's no such thing as freedom from doubt when you're a rationalist, since doubt is the inherent basis of all skepticism.

It's the people who claim to know, 100%, without universally-demonstrable evidence that supports that degree of certainty, whom you should fear most in this world. Freedom from doubt is the mark of a zealot.

Parsimony.

The logical contortions required to support a consistent perspective that includes the Christian deity are so numerous as to be insurmountable.

The logical contortions required to support a positive belief in some deity - the existence of some god/higher power - are somewhat less so but still great enough as to be easily dismissed as the less likely case by far without additional evidence.

(May 9, 2016 at 11:30 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(May 9, 2016 at 11:11 am)Emjay Wrote: It's not like this for me all the time, just occasionally. Most of the time I operate from a much more positive position like you of asking what possible reasons there are to believe - and there aren't any that come to mind, but since I have this Christian baggage occasionally I have doubts. But it's only because I have knowledge of the religion that I haven't 'unlearned' (not sure if you can unlearn anything per se)... I don't have similar doubts about any of the countless other religions I have no knowledge of. So it's just the doubts that come from the fact that once something is posited it exists in a sense to be disproved.

I'm afraid atheism (or, more accurately I should say "a secular worldview") isn't going to ever free you from doubt because 1) social programming you received in religious ideology is deeply entrenched in your thought-processes, and must be actively recognized (not always possible) in order to be overridden by your rational brain, and 2) there's no such thing as freedom from doubt when you're a rationalist, since doubt is the inherent basis of all skepticism.

It's the people who claim to know, 100%, without universally-demonstrable evidence that supports that degree of certainty, whom you should fear most in this world. Freedom from doubt is the mark of a zealot.

Thank you, what you say makes a lot of sense   This is why I am so opposed to religious indoctrination in children... that all these belief systems are essentially implanted without their knowledge or consent... and then you're lumbered with them forever after. And like you say, they can only be rationally overridden if they are first brought to the surface... leaving a whole web of interconnecting ideas festering beneath the surface and influencing your thinking when it shouldn't be.

I've never believed in gods but the one thing that makes me confident in my atheism is reading any post by Drich or GC.

(May 9, 2016 at 12:05 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote: I've never believed in gods but the one thing that makes me confident in my atheism is reading any post by Drich or GC.

Me too   Particularly Drich.

There's no indication that any supernatural God actually exists outside of the assertions of others, as far as I can tell. I've never seen him. Never heard him. At no point in my life have I knowingly witnessed any supernatural or miraculous occurrences of any kind, whatsoever. Those who claim to have experienced these seemingly impossible things are unable to provide proof of such. 

Until one of those things changes, all I'm left with is an ever-growing pile of words, words, and more words.
To date, I'm simply UNABLE to believe such a monumentally fantastic claim based on words; despite having a desire to believe in something more.

(May 9, 2016 at 12:20 pm)Thena323 Wrote: There's no indication that any supernatural God actually exists outside of the assertions of others, as far as I can tell. I've never seen him. Never heard him. At no point in my life have I knowingly witnessed any supernatural or miraculous occurrences of any kind, whatsoever. Those who claim to have experienced these seemingly impossible things are unable to provide proof of such. 

Until one of those things changes, all I'm left with is an ever-growing pile of words, words, and more words.
To date, I'm simply UNABLE to believe such a monumentally fantastic claim based on words; despite having a desire to believe in something more.

I totally agree. I've never seen or heard him either, and never witnessed anything supernatural or miraculous of any kind, even when I was a Christian. I have experienced nothing as a Christian that I can't put down to the psychological workings of the brain, nor heard of any experiences by others that can't be explained the same way. The same thing with 'miracles' that rely on the power of positive thinking etc... to me they don't count because they are explained by psychology.

And that's a lovely way of putting it... that it's just words, words, and more words... the endless assertions of others. It kind of fits in with what I was saying in another thread that without interpersonal human influence, religion would be nothing.

(May 9, 2016 at 9:05 am)Emjay Wrote: What are your most convincing reasons for not believing in god? I don't mean convincing to other people (necessarily) but convincing to yourself... what reasons stop you going back (if you are an ex-theist) even if you wanted to?

I'm an ex-Christian so I have baggage and I admit that very occasionally I am tempted back but one of the reasons that prevents me is simply the fact of contradictions in the Bible: if there are contradictions it can't be infallible, and if it's not infallible but only 'inspired' then how can you trust any of it (or know what to trust)? Ultimately it is that reason that stops me in my tracks if I'm ever tempted to read the Bible again... I literally cannot get past the first few pages of Genesis without thinking 'this is silly' even if I actually want to go back to Christianity.

I'd love to hear what other core reasons people have for not believing... reasons that act like mental blocks to ever returning. Ashamedly I do have doubts from time to time and so am not 100% certain like Rob, but I'd like to be, and I think having a few more core reasons (rather than superficial/semantic reasons) would help 

For the same reason I don't believe sticking a pineapple up my arse is a good cure for the current economic crisis. Its a fucking stupid idea with nothing going it.

Well, my move from a completely brainwashed fundie to atheist . . . in no particular order (I think the rational part of my brain had to throw everything it could find at the psychosis - )

*  The realization that Yahweh in particular was just simply evil - and I could not worship such a creature.
*  The realization that a huge amount of the wholly babble stories could not possibly be literally true.
*  The realization that yes, there were hundreds of contradictions in the wholly babble.
*  Admitting something that I knew at some level as a child: prayer doesn't work, speaking in tongues is an act spurred on by peer pressure, and most of what happens in church is for show - to the people around you.
*  Realizing the every one of dozens of sects of xtianity think they are right and the others are wrong, and god never corrects anybody.  They just kill each other over who prays the right way.  Oh yeah, and there are other religions - and there is not a shred of proof that any group in any religion is healthier or happier or treats their fellow humans any better than any others.  In fact, the way I was raised, the church members were convinced that everybody who wasn't a believer (THEIR WAY) was evil and deserved hell.  They didn't love their fellow man - they hated him.
*  Learning about the basics of evolution, biology, cosmology - - and realizing that the truth was THERE.
*  Realizing that evolution completely destroys the reason for the sacrifice of Jesus as I was taught the story (we are all sinners because of Adam and Eve - there was no Adam and Eve - there was no garden - there was no original sin). 
*  Realizing that the "sacrifice of god for our sins" was only a reworking of an ancient "dying and rising god" story, built on the concept of sacrifice to appease the gods, and it makes no logical sense.  Seriously - a god dying for our sins (that don't exist, and if they do, he created them) - to appease himself for the error that he created, so that he doesn't have to torture us forever because of his failure . . . and . . . say whut? (Actually, "dying and rising god" was a tie-in to the seasons and agriculture.)
*  And then there is the concept of hell - - which is outrageously unfair and ridiculously evil.  It's obviously a means of control for vicious priests.
*  And then there is the enormous scale of the universe.  The Hubble Ultra Deep Field shows galaxies spanning back 13.2 billion years in time - that means it took that long for the light to reach us - well then, a god creating the earth 6000 years ago is beyond silly.  This Earth is an insignificant pale blue dot even when seen from Saturn . . . there are billions upon billions of galaxies . . . and yet, a huge amount of xtians think that god helps them find their car keys.  

There is more . . . but that was the basic pattern.

Fuzz