(May 8, 2016 at 2:53 pm)IATIA Wrote: Ancient time keepers were usually Sages, Magi, or astrologer-priests...

And this tells us that the length of a year was?

(May 8, 2016 at 3:12 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 2:53 pm)IATIA Wrote: Ancient time keepers were usually Sages, Magi, or astrologer-priests...

And this tells us that the length of a year was?

Well, astrologers certainly could.

Boru

(May 7, 2016 at 2:20 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote: So let me get this straight. You're saying that a day and a month in the bible are what we know them to be but a year could be anything. If a year was shorter so as to make the myths of people living 1000 years a bit more realistic what is it? How old was Noah really when he died? 100, 80, 200?

Nupe again. What I've said repeatedly but you seem to be obvlious to is that before the Egyptians in this case the exodus forward NO ONE KNOWS (this includes any secular organization as well) How calendars were kept. So from Exodus forward we have the Jewish 12 or 13 Month calendar.

Quote:I'm interested in how it pans out when the bible tells us that some men had their first child at 60 or 70 years old. If we say Noah was 100, they would have fathered at 6. Nahor would have been dead at 15 but fathered 8 children.

Well then there are guesstimates as to what a year equaled to depending one which of the the secular calendars you want to believe these men used. Your going to have to google them for yourself. As I don't care enough to lay it all out for you.

Quote:What's the rough ratio that we should be using to calculate OT years Drich.

I don't. If asked I simply point out the unknown.

Quote: Don't keep saying it's not a year but could 'float' around to be any length you want but won't actually commit.

Again as I pointed out years sometimes in some cultures were based on harvest cycles or river floods. Their was no interest in keeping a celestial account, but they did keep a count of harvests before the winter/dead period. If two harvests/floods could be reaped then for them that "span" would equal two to your one year. however if nothing was able to be harvest/flood one whole year then two of our years would go by and only be counted as one for them.

You Can not Put a time ratio on it as the records will always be lost. what you 'smart people' can't seem to get is that This isn't just a bible thing. this across the board.

Quote:Whatever ratio you pick to try and shift one bible myth bullshit story into something realistic, it sends other myths into deeper levels of absurdity and you fucking know it which is why you're so vague. A year in the OT is 365 fucking days and you know it.

Hey stupid read some of the links I provided for you. The Jews Now don't count a 365 day year. they count 7, 30 day months and 5, 29 day months which equals 355 days unles it is a year that contains a leap month then the calendar year contains 385 days.

So tell me some more how Adam knew of and use the Gregorian calendar (something not in use till 1588)

Quote: The fact that it doesn't make sense to have 1000 year old men should alert you to the fact that you are reading a book of myths. Instead you try to twist it so that you can accept the bullshit as truth.

Look whether those men were a 100 or 1000 or even 10,000 of our years nothing changes for me. I am simply point out your ignorance so you do not make a fool of yourself to those who know better. If you don't care how people view your shameful ignorance of basic history, then please explain how someone who lived 6000 years ago is supposed to use a 400+ year old calendar.

Pathetic.

(May 9, 2016 at 9:03 am)Drich Wrote: If you don't care how people view your shameful ignorance of basic history, then please explain how someone who lived 6000 years ago is supposed to use a 400+ year old calendar.

Pathetic.

Pretty sure we're not the ignorant ones, here. We've linked you to the known cultures who used calendars of 360 days, which predate (and surround) the Canaanite/Hebrew regions. We've explained to you how there are multiple ways for people to know approximately how long a year is, dating back to antiquity.

Finally, the Gregorian calendar was just an update to the previous, Julian calendar, introduced in 46 BCE by Julius Caesar, making a few tiny adjustments for accuracy (leap year days, etc). The Julian calendar replaced the old Roman calendar, which went through several editions, mainly trying to keep up with the drift between the solar year and the spin-rate of the earth, which simply don't lend themselves to easy calculations for the number of days that add up to an exact year.

Before them, we also have the Zoroastrian calendars, themselves derived from the Babylonians (who were expert astronomers and astrologers... thus the "Wise Men"/Magi of the "We Three Kings" song/fable) and earlier Sumerians.

The point here is, for all your "we don't know" evasiveness on this one, so you can hold on to your precious mythology, that we DO know that the ancients were well aware of the length of a year, which means that the Old Testament authors really were claiming the Patriarchs lived ~900 years.

Since we know that, according to the story, Abraham-and-crew came from Sumeria to Canaan, and we know from discovered writings of the Sumerians that they alleged their KINGS (not commoners) lived and ruled for ~900 years (though the Sumerians also claimed that their earlier line of kings ruled for tens and in some cases hundreds of thousands of years, each, and only one dynasty was in the 900-year range), it stands to reason that the Hebrew writers simply appropriated this mythology into their own. The Sumerians did it as a way of claiming their newly-formed empire was really Very Ancient™, and had roots in great power... guess why the Hebrew writers did it, then!

(May 8, 2016 at 2:19 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 1:26 pm)Gawdzilla Wrote: Mega hoop jumping to try and rationalize the goat-herders' campfire stories. 

You can understand their need to explain these impossible bible stories to themselves. They know full well that men didn't live for hundreds of years but they cannot possibly admit that the book is a myth or else the OT just unravels. That only leaves one possible recourse - massage the myth to fit reality, in this case adjust the length of a year.

I've never met a believer who bothered with explanations. There must be some, I just don't know any. So I can say that I don't understand that "need", because I really don't think it is relevant.

(May 8, 2016 at 4:50 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 3:12 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote: And this tells us that the length of a year was?

Well, astrologers certainly could.

Boru

And knowing what a year was had great importance to agrarian societies, planting and harvesting times came around regularly, on a yearly cycle. Trying to get the OT to make even the least sense by magicking up a different way of counting years is silly.

(May 9, 2016 at 11:21 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(May 9, 2016 at 9:03 am)Drich Wrote: If you don't care how people view your shameful ignorance of basic history, then please explain how someone who lived 6000 years ago is supposed to use a 400+ year old calendar.

Pathetic.

Pretty sure we're not the ignorant ones, here. We've linked you to the known cultures who used calendars of 360 days, which predate (and surround) the Canaanite/Hebrew regions. We've explained to you how there are multiple ways for people to know approximately how long a year is, dating back to antiquity.

Pretty sure that you are, and what's worse you are defiantly standing in your ignorance.
I have made provisions in my arguments that also predate the Religion to 4000 BC. But at the sametime pointout that back then, their was not a standard calendar being used by the world. So even if these people over here used this calendar it did not mean a given nomadic tribe in the region did. Furthermore I have supported the argument that the Jews did not use a 365 day calendar by show you goof balls that they do not use a 365 day calendar NOW, while the whole rest of the world uses this standard so why would you assume they would use one then!?!?

Quote:Finally, the Gregorian calendar was just an update to the previous, Julian calendar, introduced in 46 BCE by Julius Caesar, making a few tiny adjustments for accuracy (leap year days, etc). The Julian calendar replaced the old Roman calendar, which went through several editions, mainly trying to keep up with the drift between the solar year and the spin-rate of the earth, which simply don't lend themselves to easy calculations for the number of days that add up to an exact year.

Before them, we also have the Zoroastrian calendars, themselves derived from the Babylonians (who were expert astronomers and astrologers... thus the "Wise Men"/Magi of the "We Three Kings" song/fable) and earlier Sumerians.

which is 2600 years AFTER THE TIME PERIOD BEING DISCUSSED!
I clearly state after the exodus the Jews adopted the calendar they have now. (which was in the time of Moses 1400+ years before "we three kings) which came +1200 years after noah, which is 1400 after Adam. (depending on what a year was then) Which is whom this thread is about (or Methuselah) as they were the only two nearing the 1000 year mark.

Quote:The point here is, for all your "we don't know" evasiveness on this one, so you can hold on to your precious mythology, that we DO know that the ancients were well aware of the length of a year, which means that the Old Testament authors really were claiming the Patriarchs lived ~900 years.

Again since you can't be bother to actually read what I have already said, and therefore can not speak topically I will not go into further detail other than to say the "We" in "We don't know" is not limited to Apologetics. I have conclusively shown that The "WE" in "We don't know" refers to all fields of study concerning this particular region and this particular people, in the time frame being discussed.

Quote:Since we know that, according to the story, Abraham-and-crew came from Sumeria to Canaan, and we know from discovered writings of the Sumerians that they alleged their KINGS (not commoners) lived and ruled for ~900 years (though the Sumerians also claimed that their earlier line of kings ruled for tens and in some cases hundreds of thousands of years, each, and only one dynasty was in the 900-year range), it stands to reason that the Hebrew writers simply appropriated this mythology into their own. The Sumerians did it as a way of claiming their newly-formed empire was really Very Ancient™, and had roots in great power... guess why the Hebrew writers did it, then!

If you are going to dismiss the bible as factually recording the life and events of the Pre-Israel Patriarchs then you've disqualified yourself from the entire discussion.

(May 9, 2016 at 9:03 am)Drich Wrote: Look whether those men were a 100 or 1000 or even 10,000 of our years nothing changes for me. I am simply point out your ignorance so you do not make a fool of yourself to those who know better.

You could slot that first sentence into the AIG statement of faith/ignorance, although they disagree on time definitions with you. 1000 year old men are myths Drich, the year/month/day usage in the bible is pretty clear. Your parents failed you when they forced this shit so far into your head that you can't think rationally.

(May 9, 2016 at 1:27 pm)Drich Wrote: Pretty sure that you are, and what's worse you are defiantly standing in your ignorance.
I have made provisions in my arguments that also predate the Religion to 4000 BC. But at the sametime pointout that back then, their was not a standard calendar being used by the world. So even if these people over here used this calendar it did not mean a given nomadic tribe in the region did. Furthermore I have supported the argument that the Jews did not use a 365 day calendar by show you goof balls that they do not use a 365 day calendar NOW, while the whole rest of the world uses this standard so why would you assume they would use one then!?!?

Nice try at goalpost shifting, dude. The people in discussion aren't the 4000 year old men you're talking about, but how they were described by people who wrote the Old Testament, sometime between 1300 BCE and 700 BCE, depending on whom you're asking to date the Bible stories. In either case, the men who wrote the stories would have used their version of years... which, even if it's not a 365 1/4 day calendar, is nevertheless very close to a year as we would measure it. In other words, not nearly long enough for the time distortions which you are alleging to have happened.

(May 9, 2016 at 1:27 pm)Drich Wrote: which is 2600 years AFTER THE TIME PERIOD BEING DISCUSSED!
I clearly state after the exodus the Jews adopted the calendar they have now. (which was in the time of Moses 1400+ years before "we three kings) which came +1200 years after noah, which is 1400 after Adam. (depending on what a year was then) Which is whom this thread is about (or Methuselah) as they were the only two nearing the 1000 year mark.

Again, see the above.

(May 9, 2016 at 1:27 pm)Drich Wrote: Again since you can't be bother to actually read what I have already said, and therefore can not speak topically I will not go into further detail other than to say the "We" in "We don't know" is not limited to Apologetics. I have conclusively shown that The "WE" in "We don't know" refers to all fields of study concerning this particular region and this particular people, in the time frame being discussed.

If you are going to dismiss the bible as factually recording the life and events of the Pre-Israel Patriarchs then you've disqualified yourself from the entire discussion.

I agree with you that the people who wrote the Old Testament had no way of knowing, other than some oral traditions which were handed down (and influenced, very obviously, by the Sumerian god-king mythologies from the culture they had left, according to the story of Abraham), what happened in 4000 BCE. Nevertheless my point remains that their descriptions of the Patriarchs, which just happen to coincide with the ages of those Sumerian kings, is a borrowed-and-adapted set of stories, and there is zero reason to believe that the writers didn't know what a year was, or that they intended to write anything other than an exact number of years they were alleging that the Patriarchs lived.

Take your sneering derision and shove it up your ass, from whence you seem to pull the rest of the bullshit you're trying to feed us, here.

(May 9, 2016 at 2:25 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote:

(May 9, 2016 at 9:03 am)Drich Wrote: Look whether those men were a 100 or 1000 or even 10,000 of our years nothing changes for me. I am simply point out your ignorance so you do not make a fool of yourself to those who know better.

You could slot that first sentence into the AIG statement of faith/ignorance, although they disagree on time definitions with you. 1000 year old men are myths Drich, the year/month/day usage in the bible is pretty clear. Your parents failed you when they forced this shit so far into your head that you can't think rationally.

So you believe at no time in Human existence Men could not ever live to be 1000 years old?

In order for you to believe that you must first think very highly of yourself and our current point of progression as a species. To say that living conditions have never been better, nor can technology have nor ever will exist to allow man to live beyond what you consider to be a 'normal life span.' Demands the believe that we are the pinical of Humanity.

That aside I have shown you repeatedly that the Jews have a completely different understanding of the word Day, Week, Month and Year. They do not count them the same way you do. Even today. Why will you not concede this part of your argument? I have posted links to actual Jewish websites that show a completely different accounting of the calendar year than what you are claiming right now for the Jews.

Look, your not arguing against me here. You are trying to cover your own ignorance by facts that I have completely backed with your conjecture and the way you think the world works. I have provided facts. if you want to have a fact based discussion then please cite something otherwise "Shoo fly Shoo."