(May 8, 2016 at 1:45 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: Since causality and non-causality can't both be true, it's either one or the other, causality is real and non-causality isn't, and not only that, it's also impossible.

I was with you here until that last part when you just boldly snuck in "it's also impossible" -- again, without logical proof by logical contradiction it remains a logical possibility whether you like it or not. That's what "logically possible" means.

-Hammy

Robvalue Wrote:"If it is the case that all humans have no genuine decisions to make, I think it is morally correct to make the genuine decision not to punish any crimes."

I have encountered that fallacy and you're absolutely right that is a fallacy, I see what you're saying now.

I myself avoid both that and fatalism by recognizing that we do have genuine decisions to make, they're just not absolutely free. So I would say "If it's the case that all humans have no absolutely free genuine decisions to make, I nevertheless think it's IMO morally correct to make the genuinely relatively but not absolutely free decision to punish crimes insofar as it actually helps people overall, whilst avoiding so-called 'just deserts' that would only make sense if our decisions were absolutely free."

-Hammy

(May 9, 2016 at 12:15 am)pool the great Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 9:45 pm)vorlon13 Wrote:

To mark the territory of course. :')

That's certainly one perfectly sexily valid reason, but it isn't the only one.

"perfectly sexy valid" is now a thing. I just made it a thing

-Hammy

Although... should that have instead been "perfectly validly sexy?" Meh, hasn't got the same ring to it at all.

-Hammy

(May 8, 2016 at 1:45 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: We experience the world through our minds. Our minds explain everything through causality. Since causality and non-causality can't both be true, it's either one or the other, causality is real and non-causality isn't, and not only that, it's also impossible. That's all there is to it. No need to over-complicate things.

You do not do much research, do you?

Silly penguin.

I personally think it is important, and a topic worthy both of professional research, and my own personal time and thought.

Look how often "sin" and "evil" are associated with choice. Christians say chosing to be gay I a sin, but once science could definitively show it was not a choice, many Christians were able to accept it.

If we understand that all behavior, from nurturing to murder, are caused, then perhaps we will spend more time seeking and helping people to avoid the causes of harmful behaviors, and give them the tools for a better life, instead of just heaping on thoughtless blame.

People who are dangerous still need to be locked up until a better solution comes up, but the whole notion of punishment needs to be reworked, with a much greater focus on prevention, and compassionate thinking.

Hard determinism in mainstream acceptance can lead us to a better society, not a fatalistic one.

(May 9, 2016 at 9:57 pm)Aroura Wrote: I personally think it is important, and a topic worthy both of professional research, and my own personal time and thought.

Look how often "sin" and "evil" are associated with choice. Christians say chosing to be gay I a sin, but once science could definitively show it was not a choice, many Christians were able to accept it.

If we understand that all behavior, from nurturing to murder, are caused, then perhaps we will spend more time seeking and helping people to avoid the causes of harmful behaviors, and give them the tools for a better life, instead of just heaping on thoughtless blame.

People who are dangerous still need to be locked up until a better solution comes up, but the whole notion of punishment needs to be reworked, with a much greater focus on prevention, and compassionate thinking.

Hard determinism in mainstream acceptance can lead us to a better society, not a fatalistic one.

Well, technically, fatalism is true, but that doesn't mean it's bad. People will be people regardless, some will think they were destined to be happy no matter what and others will think the opposite. Nothing to do with the non-existent difference between determinism and fatalism.

You don't get words.

(May 9, 2016 at 10:37 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: You don't get words.

Why don't you educate me on the difference between fatalism and determinism, Doctor Evie.