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Dr. Craig is a liar.
May 13, 2016 at 7:58 am
(May 13, 2016 at 7:53 am)SteveII Wrote: (May 12, 2016 at 5:51 pm)Time Traveler Wrote: It is YOUR bald assertion that there "was no material cause at the point of creating the universe." This is what YOU have to demonstrate. So far, you have failed.
Ugh. To avoid a past infinite regression, there was no material in which to create a universe out of.
Quote:Okay, after all this, your "Yes" to this question finally establishes that you believe 1) There was a period prior to the creation of the universe, and 2) God existed in a timeless, changeless state during this period.
Question: How long was this period prior to the creation of time in which God existed in a timeless, changeless state?
There was no time so measuring it would be nonsensical. Since I am positing a beginning to the universe and a change in God, use of the word prior just refers to the previous state.
Quote:Question: Even if God had the "potential" for change, what internal mechanism could ever trigger a change in a timeless, changeless being that somehow existed prior to the creation of time?
God's decision to create was a timeless one in that there was no period of indecision preceding it. God could not have created the universe sooner. It simply is that God was timeless and changeless sans the universe and temporal and changing with the universe.
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May 13, 2016 at 8:02 am
(May 13, 2016 at 7:53 am)SteveI Wrote: God's decision to create was a timeless one in that there was no period of indecision preceding it. God could not have created the universe sooner. It simply is that God was timeless and changeless sans the universe and temporal and changing with the universe.
Do you see that there is a counter intuitive quality in making statements such as this? When you say that God decided to create "x", you imply a state in which God existed, but "x" did not, and then an event occurs that leads to a state where both God and "x" exist. If something is "timeless", there is no timeline or series of events. You have to reconcile this or revise...
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May 13, 2016 at 8:05 am
(May 13, 2016 at 8:02 am)The Reality Salesman Wrote: (May 13, 2016 at 7:53 am)SteveI Wrote: God's decision to create was a timeless one in that there was no period of indecision preceding it. God could not have created the universe sooner. It simply is that God was timeless and changeless sans the universe and temporal and changing with the universe.
Do you see that there is a counter intuitive quality in making statements such as this? When you say that God decided to create "x", you imply a state in which God existed, but "x" did not, and then an event occurs that leads to a state where both God and "x" exist. If something is "timeless", there is no timeline or series of events. You have to reconcile this or revise...
We've been asking this of him for days now. His only answer thus far is to just repeat it over and over in hopes that it will magically begin to make sense, lol.
Hello, btw. Are you new to the forum? I'm enjoying your posts! [emoji846]
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
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May 13, 2016 at 8:13 am
Hello! Thank you. I joined in 2013, I've just been really busy over the past year and have had very little time to get on here. When they went to the app, in threw my routine way out of whack. I came back to see what's been going on! I missed everyone.
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May 13, 2016 at 8:22 am
(May 13, 2016 at 12:22 am)wiploc Wrote: (May 12, 2016 at 9:09 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Why do they think these things poof I to existence without any cause?
I don't know. I'm not a quantum physicist.
You can read up on the Copenhagen interpretation.
I've never seen anyone giving a reason for this.... Usually just general hand waving, and appeal to very small things or vague references. Thought maybe by the way you where talking, you knew something that I didn't.
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May 13, 2016 at 8:24 am
(May 13, 2016 at 8:22 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (May 13, 2016 at 12:22 am)wiploc Wrote: I don't know. I'm not a quantum physicist.
You can read up on the Copenhagen interpretation.
I've never seen anyone giving a reason for this.... Usually just general hand waving, and appeal to very small things or vague references. Thought maybe by the way you where talking, you knew something that I didn't.
Well, as Rocket explicitly pointed out to you pages ago, this is not a science forum, and atheists do not bear the burden of providing you with a science education. Go take some physics classes at your local college if you are genuinely interested in learning more about the subject.
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May 13, 2016 at 8:27 am
(May 13, 2016 at 8:22 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (May 13, 2016 at 12:22 am)wiploc Wrote: I don't know. I'm not a quantum physicist.
You can read up on the Copenhagen interpretation.
I've never seen anyone giving a reason for this.... Usually just general hand waving, and appeal to very small things or vague references. Thought maybe by the way you where talking, you knew something that I didn't.
It would be like me saying to you: "Well RR, if you can't explain the mathematical equations behind special relativity to me then I don't have to believe that gravity exists."
Kind of silly, don't you think?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
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May 13, 2016 at 8:43 am
(May 13, 2016 at 8:02 am)The Reality Salesman Wrote: (May 13, 2016 at 7:53 am)SteveI Wrote: God's decision to create was a timeless one in that there was no period of indecision preceding it. God could not have created the universe sooner. It simply is that God was timeless and changeless sans the universe and temporal and changing with the universe.
Do you see that there is a counter intuitive quality in making statements such as this? When you say that God decided to create "x", you imply a state in which God existed, but "x" did not, and then an event occurs that leads to a state where both God and "x" exist. If something is "timeless", there is no timeline or series of events. You have to reconcile this or revise...
Actually, my understanding is; that is part of the argument for a personal cause or one capable of intention. And if time is relational to the physical world, and not separate, then also for a non-physical cause.
The questions, and I don't think we have any point of reference to answer them, is can a non-physical entity act outside of time. However, if the evidence points to a beginning of time, then I think that the answer has to be yes. Otherwise we wouldn't be asking the question "why is there something; rather than nothing".
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May 13, 2016 at 8:48 am
(May 13, 2016 at 8:43 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (May 13, 2016 at 8:02 am)The Reality Salesman Wrote: Do you see that there is a counter intuitive quality in making statements such as this? When you say that God decided to create "x", you imply a state in which God existed, but "x" did not, and then an event occurs that leads to a state where both God and "x" exist. If something is "timeless", there is no timeline or series of events. You have to reconcile this or revise...
Actually, my understanding is; that is part of the argument for a personal cause or one capable of intention. And if time is relational to the physical world, and not separate, then also for a non-physical cause.
The questions, and I don't think we have any point of reference to answer them, is can a non-physical entity act outside of time. However, if the evidence points to a beginning of time, then I think that the answer has to be yes. Otherwise we wouldn't be asking the question "why is there something; rather than nothing".
Not everyone is asking that, as it might be a completely nonsensical question in the first place. Putting "why" in front of it doesn't necessarily render it legitimate. It's kind of like question begging I think.
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May 13, 2016 at 8:53 am
(This post was last modified: May 13, 2016 at 8:54 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Can a gorrilla disassemble a chevy big block?
-If there is a beginning of time, the answer must be yes
-or we wouldn't be asking the question "why is there something rather than nothing"
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