(May 23, 2016 at 9:37 pm)pool the great Wrote:

(May 23, 2016 at 2:45 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Men earning more than women in 439 out of 446 American jobs is an interesting statistic, Pool.  And it is caused by a multitude of factors, it's not only gender discrimination.  I will go read your posted article, but I have witnessed discrimination and inequality personally.  So neither of us can say that the other side is putting out false propaganda for their own purposes - what is needed is an unbiased look at ALL the factors, and ways for both sides to come together to find a way to alter this 439 out of 446 result into something more equitable.

I'm genuinely curious about the experience you had. Can you please share?

Sorry Pool, haven't read that article you posted yet.  Busy, and it's late here . . . maybe tomorrow.  Discrimination and inequity?  Geez, there are too many of those experiences to list here, and I'm tired.  There are dozens of stories I could tell - mostly about not having a voice at all if there was more than one male in the room.  Getting talked over, having ideas and projects stolen - -     But let's see.  I was (only a year or so ago) working at a library part-time.  I had taken the extra time to learn nearly all of the aspects of the library, they trusted me to run it when the director was out, and a full-time position was open. I had completed my Master's degree in Library Science.  I knew every aspect of running the organization, except for purchasing, which this position didn't require.  They chose three applicants to interview - I was one, there was another female who had library experience but no degree, and a guy who had started his BA in Business at the school, who had no library experience.  I thought that I had a good shot at the position, after all, I was the only interview-ee who had the desired education, I knew how the place worked and had already served as a manager, and I was a part of the team. But the guy was hired.  He was young, handsome, energetic. The interviewers were 5 male members of the HR staff - the Library Director wasn't even on the committee.  He lasted two months.  He didn't have any of the knowledge required for the position.  But by then I had found another job.

The job that I found - I had interviewed for almost immediately upon not being chosen for the job I just described.  But I was told that they had hired someone else.  Two months later, I got an e-mail asking if I still wanted the job.  The reason I wasn't chosen?  The hiring committee was 4 male supervisors and one female - the Library Director.  They chose Fiona - she was very pretty.  Who cared if she had none of the qualifications required for the job.  The supervisor was outvoted 4-1.  Fiona lasted less than two weeks.  You can't learn advanced cataloging on the fly.
   The supervisor quit in protest, and they had to close the library for a month.  My salary was $1200 less (with the required Master's degree) than my male predecessor's starting salary - and he did not have the required degree.  How do I know this?  - We are friends.  He recommended me for the position.

I have LOTS more stories.  These are just the most recent.  Sexism, ageism, racism, elitism . . . anti-atheism! . . . these all exist, handsome younger brother Pool.  I hope that I get to see a better, more equitable world before I kick the bucket.  Good night.

(May 24, 2016 at 1:02 am)drfuzzy Wrote:

(May 23, 2016 at 9:37 pm)pool the great Wrote: I'm genuinely curious about the experience you had. Can you please share?

Sorry Pool, haven't read that article you posted yet.  Busy, and it's late here . . . maybe tomorrow.  Discrimination and inequity?  Geez, there are too many of those experiences to list here, and I'm tired.  There are dozens of stories I could tell - mostly about not having a voice at all if there was more than one male in the room.  Getting talked over, having ideas and projects stolen - -     But let's see.  I was (only a year or so ago) working at a library part-time.  I had taken the extra time to learn nearly all of the aspects of the library, they trusted me to run it when the director was out, and a full-time position was open. I had completed my Master's degree in Library Science.  I knew every aspect of running the organization, except for purchasing, which this position didn't require.  They chose three applicants to interview - I was one, there was another female who had library experience but no degree, and a guy who had started his BA in Business at the school, who had no library experience.  I thought that I had a good shot at the position, after all, I was the only interview-ee who had the desired education, I knew how the place worked and had already served as a manager, and I was a part of the team. But the guy was hired.  He was young, handsome, energetic. The interviewers were 5 male members of the HR staff - the Library Director wasn't even on the committee.  He lasted two months.  He didn't have any of the knowledge required for the position.  But by then I had found another job.

The job that I found - I had interviewed for almost immediately upon not being chosen for the job I just described.  But I was told that they had hired someone else.  Two months later, I got an e-mail asking if I still wanted the job.  The reason I wasn't chosen?  The hiring committee was 4 male supervisors and one female - the Library Director.  They chose Fiona - she was very pretty.  Who cared if she had none of the qualifications required for the job.  The supervisor was outvoted 4-1.  Fiona lasted less than two weeks.  You can't learn advanced cataloging on the fly.
   The supervisor quit in protest, and they had to close the library for a month.  My salary was $1200 less (with the required Master's degree) than my male predecessor's starting salary - and he did not have the required degree.  How do I know this?  - We are friends.  He recommended me for the position.

I have LOTS more stories.  These are just the most recent.  Sexism, ageism, racism, elitism . . . anti-atheism! . . . these all exist, handsome younger brother Pool.  I hope that I get to see a better, more equitable world before I kick the bucket.  Good night.

Wow, okay, that's a pretty shitty experience you had to go through.  I feel for you, but I was more hoping to hear about your experience regarding pay discrimination you had faced.

(May 23, 2016 at 7:19 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(May 23, 2016 at 5:26 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No moron,...women's products like clothing, hygiene products, and medical care cost more...

Buy fewer shoes. Problem solved.

Are you that insecure to think a female cant lead you or should not lead you?

"You hit like a girl" is that the sexist bullshit you buy into?

I once took a PE class in college and bowling was part of it. I got paired playing a female. She was ahead of me on the last frame. The pins on my set didn't set up right so I hit reset. She falsely accused me of cheating, and I would have had the same reaction if I had been playing another guy. But when she finally one she not only insulted me, but women as well by saying "Sucks to be beating by a girl"

NO,it does not suck. Nobody likes losing, but her gender nor my gender matter. What mattered were the number of pins each of us had on the last frame. She won fair and square.

And having grown up small and scrawny I can tell you flat out there were/are women who could physically kick my ass. And there are also women in positions of protecting society, such as cops and firefighters and EMTs. I am not so damned conceited as to think being male and physically weaker than other men and many women is something to be ashamed of. 

Now for your information. My adoptive dad, was a biology teacher at a high school. But he sucked at balancing a checkbook. My adoptive mom kept the books, not him. Now if you expect me to be ashamed of that because of his gender or her gender, think again. Your plumbing doesn't make you special or better than women. PERIOD!

Women and men ARE equal. The differences are in the individual not the plumbing. Women and men simply have different adaptations, not special adaptations. Just like religion sells the bullshit that there is a special religious pecking order on a planet of 7 billion. There is no gender pecking order either. There are just stupid sexist men world wide that confuse brawn an a penis as being more important than a vagina. Our species brains are far more important than our plumbing. So use yours and stop living in the TV show Mad Men.

(May 24, 2016 at 1:28 am)pool the great Wrote:

(May 24, 2016 at 1:02 am)drfuzzy Wrote:

---

Sorry Pool, haven't read that article you posted yet.  Busy, and it's late here . . . maybe tomorrow.  Discrimination and inequity?  Geez, there are too many of those experiences to list here, and I'm tired.  There are dozens of stories I could tell - mostly about not having a voice at all if there was more than one male in the room.  Getting talked over, having ideas and projects stolen - -     But let's see.  I was (only a year or so ago) working at a library part-time.  I had taken the extra time to learn nearly all of the aspects of the library, they trusted me to run it when the director was out, and a full-time position was open. I had completed my Master's degree in Library Science.  I knew every aspect of running the organization, except for purchasing, which this position didn't require.  They chose three applicants to interview - I was one, there was another female who had library experience but no degree, and a guy who had started his BA in Business at the school, who had no library experience.  I thought that I had a good shot at the position, after all, I was the only interview-ee who had the desired education, I knew how the place worked and had already served as a manager, and I was a part of the team. But the guy was hired.  He was young, handsome, energetic. The interviewers were 5 male members of the HR staff - the Library Director wasn't even on the committee.  He lasted two months.  He didn't have any of the knowledge required for the position.  But by then I had found another job.

The job that I found - I had interviewed for almost immediately upon not being chosen for the job I just described.  But I was told that they had hired someone else.  Two months later, I got an e-mail asking if I still wanted the job.  The reason I wasn't chosen?  The hiring committee was 4 male supervisors and one female - the Library Director.  They chose Fiona - she was very pretty.  Who cared if she had none of the qualifications required for the job.  The supervisor was outvoted 4-1.  Fiona lasted less than two weeks.  You can't learn advanced cataloging on the fly.

---

   The supervisor quit in protest, and they had to close the library for a month.  My salary was $1200 less (with the required Master's degree) than my male predecessor's starting salary - and he did not have the required degree.  How do I know this?  - We are friends.  He recommended me for the position.

---

I have LOTS more stories.  These are just the most recent.  Sexism, ageism, racism, elitism . . . anti-atheism! . . . these all exist, handsome younger brother Pool.  I hope that I get to see a better, more equitable world before I kick the bucket.  Good night.

---

Wow, okay, that's a pretty shitty experience you had to go through.  I feel for you, but I was more hoping to hear about your experience regarding pay discrimination you had faced.

That must have been too long of a ramble.  Did you miss this part?  I had to accept a salary that was $1200 per year lower than my male predecessor, and I had to have a Master's degree to be interviewed,  (newly required for the position) when my predecessor only had a Bachelor's degree?

Sorry, argh, I think I missed that part.
I've actually read something about this. Shitty experiences at work is not uncommon. From a man's perspective when someone objectively less accomplished(like lesser sales record) gets promoted(yes, this has happened, I'm not making this up) he sees it as shitty management, gets reasonably pissed and possibly quit his job. But from a female's perspective when someone gets unfairly promoted, and since men are in higher numbers at work it's reasonable to assume that the person that got unfairly promoted was a man, she lost something she deserved to a MAN. So a reasonable human being would evaluate the differences between her and this guy that got promoted, she clearly have better numbers, the only difference between her and the guy is their gender, so she was discriminated against because she was a woman. It's a false equivocation in this case.

Are you sure what happened to you wasn't something like this?

Men are greater in number at work, I'd imagine when someone gets unfairly promoted and 1 female gets burned there are possibly 5 other males that got screwed too.

I'm not questioning your experience, I'm simply asking you to look at your experience from a different light and tell me if you're seeing something else.
If you're actually still 100% sure this experience happened to you because you're a female, I think you should've sued them.

(May 24, 2016 at 1:04 pm)pool the great Wrote: Sorry, argh, I think I missed that part.
I've actually read something about this. Shitty experiences at work is not uncommon. From a man's perspective when someone objectively less accomplished(like lesser sales record) gets promoted(yes, this has happened, I'm not making this up) he sees it as shitty management, gets reasonably pissed and possibly quit his job. But from a female's perspective when someone gets unfairly promoted, and since men are in higher numbers at work it's reasonable to assume that the person that got unfairly promoted was a man, she lost something she deserved to a MAN. So a reasonable human being would evaluate the differences between her and this guy that got promoted, she clearly have better numbers, the only difference between her and the guy is their gender, so she was discriminated against because she was a woman. It's a false equivocation in this case.

Are you sure what happened to you wasn't something like this?

Men are greater in number at work, I'd imagine when someone gets unfairly promoted and 1 female gets burned there are possibly 5 other males that got screwed too.

I'm not questioning your experience, I'm simply asking you to look at your experience from a different light and tell me if you're seeing something else.
If you're actually still 100% sure this experience happened to you because you're a female, I think you should've sued them.

You have a point.  Except for the fact that males are outnumbered in library work in general . . . females are in the majority.  And no, I can't absolutely say that my salary was set lower because I'm female.  The entire state where this business is located has had education budget issues.  But no matter the reason, it's outrageous to demand an advanced degree for a position, and then pay a new hire a considerably lower salary that their predecessor.  And none of the individuals that they chose to interview for this position were male.
    And this is the same place that fired me because I was stupid enough to visit AF during work hours - they found out.  Businesses are very good at NOT giving reasons for unfair treatment.  

I'm curious, Pool - you seem like such a logical guy . . . why do you seem so intent on disputing that inequality exists?  Or are you actually fighting for equality in ways you don't share?  You seem to think that most women are pampered whiners who exaggerate every imagined slight.  One would think that a young, intelligent African-American male would fight for all equality - after all, I still see sickening examples of racism. Surely you understand what it feels like to be undervalued, underestimated, and dismissed.   

The same women who cry for equal pay will still expect the guy to buy her dinner on their first date...

(May 24, 2016 at 1:47 pm)Napoléon Wrote: The same women who cry for equal pay will still expect the guy to buy her dinner on their first date...

I wouldn't say all women, but yea. There is far too much of that gender role sexism. I think it simply should not matter who is comfortable being in the lead or likes the support or likes to be more equal. What matters is consent to me, not who does what.

(May 24, 2016 at 2:44 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(May 24, 2016 at 1:47 pm)Napoléon Wrote: The same women who cry for equal pay will still expect the guy to buy her dinner on their first date...

I wouldn't say all women, but yea. There is far too much of that gender role sexism. I think it simply should not matter who is comfortable being in the lead or likes the support or likes to be more equal. What matters is consent to me, not who does what.

Agreed.

(May 24, 2016 at 1:47 pm)Napoléon Wrote: The same women who cry for equal pay will still expect the guy to buy her dinner on their first date...

On a first date I expect to pay half and half.

After that, we can discuss who pays or if we still pay half and half.