(June 8, 2016 at 4:38 pm)KevinM1 Wrote:

(June 8, 2016 at 4:24 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: . . . or the asshole who's trying to scare you with an imaginary dangerous animal.

Haha

Of course, Huggy's poor analogy doesn't really address my earlier stance.

God, according to myth, creating everything.  Including sin.  Now, I've never heard anyone except Huggy claim that there's only one sin (I mean, the seven deadly ones are right there), but that's beside the point.  The point is that if sin is actually that offensive to god, then maybe he shouldn't have created it, or, really, anything to begin with.  Non-creation is a hell (see what I did there?) of a lot more moral than creating billions destined for torture.  There's literally no harm being done with no creation.

And if god had an urge so overwhelming to create that he couldn't fight it (which would raise many more questions), then surely he could create people in heaven directly.  Or a more secure environment than the Garden of Eden, at any rate.

Theists always look at it from the wrong angle.  "God wants us to have free will!"  Okay, fine.  But that doesn't mean that god can't create an environment of only good options for people to choose from.  The idea that it's not allowed merely highlights their lack of imagination and their own dogmatic limits they place on their purported almighty.  If I can envision several different forms of reality that wouldn't wind up with billions tortured for eternity, then their god aught to have no problem with it.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that this here, this one thing, is why I'm not a believer.  I'm merely pointing out the flaws in this aspect of the setup.  And subtly mocking it.  Because it's a really shitty system.

hindu system points out that we were like fallen angels - spawned with lots of karmic currency to spend and we had a choice and still have - try to comfortably survive or pursue higher goals like common good and heaven. Were basically fallen angels, all of us, according to hindu vedas.

(June 6, 2016 at 2:39 pm)Lek Wrote: Yeah.  Pride is one of the greatest impediments to becoming a christian.  It's true that you must overcome your pride in order to worship God and be able to accept his will over your own.

So basically... you have to give up your free will?  Sounds exactly like what the topic creator described.  And it sounds pretty awful.  Seems like neither are really attractive options.  On one hand you're a souless automaton.  Everything that makes you "you" is gone.  On the other hand you're burned eternally in a lake of fire.

(June 9, 2016 at 12:38 am)Cecelia Wrote:

(June 6, 2016 at 2:39 pm)Lek Wrote: Yeah.  Pride is one of the greatest impediments to becoming a christian.  It's true that you must overcome your pride in order to worship God and be able to accept his will over your own.

So basically... you have to give up your free will?  Sounds exactly like what the topic creator described.  And it sounds pretty awful.  Seems like neither are really attractive options.  On one hand you're a souless automaton.  Everything that makes you "you" is gone.  On the other hand you're burned eternally in a lake of fire.

Yet so many Christians I've encountered, especially apologists and creationists, are just so prideful.

How does that fit your claim, Lek?

They're not True Christians, obviously.

Thinking that a being which is in charge of the whole universe is interested in you specifically, and cares about what you do, is giving up your pride?

The good news is that neither heaven or hell exist. But I don't get preferring hell over heaven even as a mere thought experiment. It is eternal physical pain. If you put a gun to my head and forced me to chose between stuck in a cell where the worst I had to do was go "I love you screw(cosmic prison guard)", while mentally would seem boring, that would make me a zombie, and sure, bad, but not painful. Vs the other cell, being tortured with infinite physical pain, I don't see the appeal to hell.

Both are evil concepts to me. Heaven is a selfish idea and if you cant feel pain or leave then all you are is a zombie. But no, that doesn't to me make hell better.

The threat bribe motif of the books of Abraham reflect the royal social norms of the times those books were written under. The royalty rewarded loyalty and punished dissent. That is where those ideas come from.

Sure, but I don't trust evil gods or people putting guns to my head. So I wouldn't "choose" heaven, especially if it meant compromising my integrity. I'd stick up for what I thought was right. If they punish me for that, so be it.

Reading posts here I once again see what religion does- breeds individuals who choke their happiness for idealistic purposes and attempt to indoctrinate others in doing the same thing. Its sad and admirable at the same time.

(June 9, 2016 at 3:54 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: Reading posts here I once again see what religion does- breeds individuals who choke their happiness for idealistic purposes, as well as attempt to try to indoctrinate others in doing the same thing. Its sad and admirable at the same time.

Where does the admirable part come in?

(June 9, 2016 at 3:56 pm)Crossless1 Wrote:

(June 9, 2016 at 3:54 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: Reading posts here I once again see what religion does- breeds individuals who choke their happiness for idealistic purposes, as well as attempt to try to indoctrinate others in doing the same thing. Its sad and admirable at the same time.

Where does the admirable part come in?

Self sacrifice/idealism.