(June 15, 2016 at 11:35 am)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: I'm learning more about you in investigation by what you answer. Do you think it's possible that a man may have goodwill towards his neighbour and serve God without being aware of it and the man be unrewarded ?
... and i you.
Honestly I do not seek nor estimate value of works to reward. I am not aware of a printed exchange rate in scripture of works to reward, therefore I leave what ever reward and or punishment completely up to God. 'Whatever my lot, He has taught me to say... It is well with my soul.'
Quote:Have you ever worked to prove anything precisely before ? Did you not see that's what I asked you to do ? I still don't agree with what you have appeared to be thinking in that above this.
You may look at some words below taken from things said previously in posts and tell me if they were the things which may have made you think that I was saying Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind is not the first and greatest commandment. You may remember how I set the true or false questions for you and proceed in a similar way.
Let me try and sort this confusion;
You posted the following in response to my inital message to the OP that outlines the various types of Love, and our call to Love God with all of our being:
kelly Wrote:Drich,
It may be thought that by serving people in the right way for God it shows a person's respect or reverence for him and the person's goodwill towards other people and God.
I think there are many ways a person may work to serve people and God and goodwill must be the force behind serving people and God.
I think it may be thought that a man may be thought of as a brother, friend, parent, son, teacher, servant, doctor and so on and it may be thought of how many different ways a man's goodwill may be shown in the various positions.
Bear with me as i am going to run through it all again.
So then If I say we must define love, then define it as the greeks did, because the command given is not to 'love' (the english word with it's modern meaning) but to Agape' we must first define agape. why? because agape' has a different understanding than our word love does. In that it describes just one aspect of our english term. Which is what I identified was the nature of the confusion the OP had.
In opposition to this you added the above quote.
My message was complete in that 'feeling' or good will toward man, was not apart of the equation outlined by the passage the OP quoted concerning our primary command. I subsequently pointed out it was entirely possible to "Agape'" God and neglect your fellow man. Which was the reason for the second Command Jesus tasked us with. Otherwise He would not need to mention the second command. IF 'good will' completed either of commands issued the our greatest command would be to serve both fueled by 'goodwill.' But the problem is.. Good will is not mentioned here. why is this important? because I believe it is possible to Agape' God without Goodwill, at least in the beginning. Which is where everyone on this website who is not a Christian is! By you adding 'good will' to the equasion Christ put fourth, you just took any hope of full filling the greatest command away from everyone who can not currently muster 'good will' toward his fellow man or God.
Again Agape' is an intellectual derision free from feeling or anything 'good or bad.' For some this is critical as adding emotion or a sense of "good" maybe beyond their current reach.
so then i moved to apply and identify where 'good will' CAN indeed apart of serving God, but also make it clear that by itself is not the completion of either command.
It is from that distinction that I believe you became confused. which is why you are stating that i said you do not believe in the greatest command.
Quote:1. "It may be thought that by serving people in the right way for God it shows a person's respect or reverence for him and the person's goodwill towards other people and God."
2. "I think there are many ways a person may work to serve people and God and goodwill must be the force behind serving people and God."
But again, neither talking points full fill the command to agape god. When you quote someone and add text below you are either in compliance and wish to amend or complete the quoted statement, or you disagree and wish to correct the quoted statement.
Either way you added text concerning 'good will' that is neither identified or mentioned in the teaching of Christ concerning the greatest commands the OP quoted from. Therefore it needed to be corrected, as your amendment good or bad was not energetically correct.. Which I did again by first identifying the parts that were compatible, and correcting what was not. (something you over looked in your initial charge)
Quote:If none of those are what caused you to think what you did then will you search for exactly what did do it. Why should anyone accept imprecise evidence in accusations ? Would you want someone to do that to you ?
Brother, the message was complete... You just needed someone to connect the dots for you. I assumed you were aware of general forum etiquette when you made your first post. clearly you are not. I answered assuming you knew of and understood the unwritten rules of quoting and in general how debate in this format works. So when I gave you an explanation I left out the bits I thought or wrongly assumed you knew. Which to you seems like an imprecise charge or accusation. i hope I fixed that problem with the walk through I did above.
Drich Wrote:--"No as I outlined you were saying love your neighbor/Serving people the 'right way.' full fills the greatest command. Or, that loving your 'brother the right way' is the same as as full filling the greatest command. It's not. Our love for God has nothing to do with what people think, do, nor how they perceive this love in anyone else. nor does it matter how they judge one's love for God based on the other person's actions.. Again, we can't all be eyes or ears. We are all different parts of the same body, and as a result our love and worship will manifest itself differently. To judge anothers love by how he does or does not interact with others is at the very least persumptious. Because it is using your gifts your standards to set a mark for a member of the body who may or may not have been blessed with your specific gift set.. The same gift set you are using as a corner stone to judge someone else."--
kelly Wrote:
You may think I've answered this partly above in asking you to use my words precisely.
You may compare with what you said above 1 John 4:1 Dear friends, don't believe everyone who claims to have the Spirit of God. Test them all to find out if they really do come from God. Many false prophets have gone out into the world.
If you compared, what is the truth about what you said ?
What does this line mean? "If you compared, what is the truth about what you said?"
If I compare what? 1 john 4 to what i said??
If that is what you are trying to say, then know what i said in the above quote, is the 'Drich' expanded version of your quote from 1 john 4:1. For I am telling you to test, not by your own understanding or standards who is or is not a Christian (or more specifically, who answers your yes or no questions in the order you are expecting if they are christian) But watch what i do and compare to what the bible says..
Or did you not see that? look at the bold face type. I wasn't speaking in generalities as John was in your quote. I observed this behaivor in you specifically and I am telling you: When YOU make a judgement you are using yourself as the standard, rule or cornerstone, which everything is measured.
You wrongly assumed I am saying in general don't judge people, I'm not. I'm saying you have shown to be a poor judge as your standard is based on your specific spiritual fruit or gifts/beliefs and do not allow room for anyone else.
In other words/bluntly you seem to see yourself as one of the "true christians" and those who do not fit your model are not. (which is the only way true false answers work on a matter of faith) So again i point to Paul word's to the Corinthians in that we are not all blessed with the same spiritual gifts. Meaning an eye (people who you see as other 'true christians') can not judge a foot (Someone else of a Jesus Christ centered faith or perhaps someone else with different gifts or a different approach spiritually) by what an eye does/an eye's function.
So my words to you are to not judge based on your personal christian standards but the standards set fourth by scripture.
--"Because we are all different our manifestation of this all encompassing love will look slightly different from person to person, and across communities may look vastly different."
"So again to say on must interact a certain way with another member of the body to be 'judged' (by you or members of your sect) to be showing an 'appropriate' amount or type of love is foolishness."--
Quote:1 John 4:1 answers all that and may be seen above.
Indeed it does.
As spiritual gifts will indeed pan out over time.
quote Wrote:--"I'm sorry, but titles were never a consideration. It is our works thoughts and deeds that define who we are. not what we call ourselves. If I am treating you the way i would like to be treated, then I am going to tell you let your deeds, your thoughts and your reaction to what it is I do and say be your answer. In turn judge what I say and do, not by how my words make you 'feel' but how closly they strike to what has been written in scripture, (not your preferred doctrine) and also HOW it was written. Judge that, not a declaration of allegiance.
So neither true nor false, seek you answer not in what I say I will do or what I say I think but in my actions."--
Quote:
It may be thought by those words you looked like an imperfect brother and it may be thought that is a consideration.
Thank you.
Quote:From above, If we are willing to serve God then that is a good condition to be in.
Is that true or false ? Use my words precisely.
Willingness to serve anyone even God in of itself MEANS NOTHING!!! Why? Motivation for service is the key, which is why i said what i said.
Again, The purpose or reason one wants to serve is key. Which pans out over time. In truth we may not know ourselves well enough to fully understand why we serve. And according to Christ in Mt7 to 'serve for the wrong reasons' is like not serving at all. "lord, lord look at all we've done in your name, and I will say away from me evil doers i never knew you." Again willing to serve is meaningless in of itself.
drich Wrote:--"I would ask you for book chapter and verse. Because what comes to mind is 2 time 3:16 All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. It is useful for correcting faults and teaching the right way to live. 17 Using the Scriptures, those who serve God will be prepared and will have everything they need to do every good work."--
--"Respect and reverence is based on what the 2nd greatest command. In that we are to show the same respect and reverence that we want to be shown."--
--"Do you have scripture that says other wise?
Otherwise I would say false. this is a doctrinal order ascribe to a method of religious worship, not a biblical one."--
Quote:I thought to add parts of a translation of Proverbs 9:10 Respect and obey the Lord. This is the beginning of wisdom.
What may you judge by comparison of your words and what I added ?
that youre tring to introduce a red herring to redirect the subject.
Truthfully I see no correleation between Prov 9 and anything that I said. It does not contradict nor does it undermine anything, as nothing I have said violates anything that God has written. That said i have deeply contradicted and questioned your religious beliefs... Are you saying you are a 'true christian' and what you say is akin to God himself saying it? In other words to question you is to question God? If not I refer you back to my request for BCV for your original position. (Book, Chapter and Verse is what BCV means)
--"Asked and answered.
Wisdom and Knowledge is a Gift of The holy Spirit. The words of Those who have been blessed with such a gift, can only be limited by God in what they know and can say. Those who do not have this Spiritual gift will find themselves "beyond words" most of their life.
So again, true and false depending on your personal relationship with God and the Holy Spirit."--
Quote:I'm still learning about you by investigation. I think that some may think it false that all wisdom comes from God and some may think it true.
This is the problem with "true Christian tests" (specifically the true false vareity.)
It is a spiritual world view that say either you are a cookie cutter of me (therefore a 'true christian') demands that you answer all these questions the same way 'I' would. If however I/Drich can not answer in your format, (and remain faithful to the gifts I've been given) you are left with no more information than you originally started with, or you simply give up and assume I am one of the 'heathens' on an atheist forum.
let me ask a couple of questions...
What if... The Whole of Christianity was not an 'eye.' (like you) meaning the rest of us somehow had the grace and mercy to answer these question with a million different answers and still all be 'right?' What if... Christianity or rather the Body of Christ was a little bigger than the true false you (an eye of the body) is 'looking' for?
what would your 'test' really ever tell you? whether or not if I were an Eye??? that's it. Now where would the rest of the body of Christ be if every single member were just like you and only could answer as an eye would? It would be useless. We need diversity, we need those with different gifts, different perspectives... Different perspectives MEANS different answers to your little test does it not?
--"Wisdom from God will equally shock and astound the speaker of those words, as anyone who hears them. Again, if it is the wisdom of God and not of self then the Id, will have no knowledge of it.
(Peter on the day of Pentecost.)"--
Quote:I thought to add Proverbs 1:5 If you are already wise, you will become even wiser. And if you are smart, you will learn to understand 1:6 proverbs and sayings as well as words of wisdom and all kinds of riddles.
What may you judge by comparison of your words and what I added ?
What I 'see' that you do not seem to know that the writer of this proverb is not directly speaking about the gift the holy Spirit gives. That context and framing scripture in it's most accurate light means very little to you, and you seem more concerned with throwing around verse scraps to justify what you believe. Other wise you would looked at the Gifts that I have specifically referenced how they were intended to be received. They are mentioned by name as spiritual gifts to those in Christ. Meaning holy Spirit infused wisdom and the literal understanding of God, as my example of Peter on the day of Pentecost demonstrates! I can also point out that you do not seem to know the difference between a command or a doctrinal truth, and a simple proverb.
That is the difference between eating an apple a day, and a comprehensive diet and exercise plan. Saving pennies verse a retirement portfolio. Yes there is truth in proverbs, but proverbs are not promises nor commands. They are PROVERBS! look up the word, they are wise sayings or as the jews identify them 'a book of wisdom.'
Quote:I use The Bible and many other things to discern the nature of someone's character and those things, including The Bible are used by me when asking questions to someone.
If this were true then you should have been able to provide BCV when asked.
--"Why? because the problem is the world (outside of church) has much greater depth and range than the black or white good or ignore classification you wish to judge me as. For example the people here are a good cross section or example of this. I would say most want to know God, the only problem is pride/they want to know him on their terms and not his. Now if I went to the majority of these guys with a true/false 'test' and only took the true false responses I could quickly deem everyone a heretic and move on. But, I fortunately stayed and dug a little deeper than the surface stuff. what I found are wounded believers. Most of which were injured/casualties of deeply held religious beliefs. The point being it take far more than a check list to evaluate someone. give it time and treat each new topic as if the last did not happen good or bad. don't hold grudges and over time you will build an accurate profile for everyone."--
Quote:I have a wide variety of questions and I'm not as simplistic as some may judge me to be. I work to obey goodwill to your neighbour as yourself for God.
This is my biggest problem with your message... Show me BCV for this little nugget you keep tossing around. I don't claim to have the bible committed to memory, so i can't place this. It sounds like something in the koran or the pearl of great price...
Quote:Do you think I'm going to treat people with contemptuous simplistic questions only, with no questions of depth and have little patience for people and little willing to understand them, whilst obeying the command goodwill to your neighbour as yourself for God ?
again I am asking for BCV. also know your questions are not judge by me.. I've been doing this for.. almost a decade with Christian and atheist alike. Your questions are mild and easy to answer, so ask as many as you like. just have some direction after I provide an answer. I will not help you chase your tail.
the point I was trying to make had nothing to do with the questions themselves, but by asking yes or no questions you are painting yourself out to be a 'true christian' type. someone looking for singular doctrinally correct answers. Otherwise you would be able to frame out a profile of someone's beliefs by allowing them to answer your questions any way they wish.
Asking yes or no/true/false question points to a check list theology. (again 'true christian stuff.')
Quote:Do you think that question was much deeper than the question is this true or false ?
that wasn't really a question. It was you taking an opportunity to soap box your doctrinal beliefs about good will.
So no it was not deeper as it was a shallow attempt to unsettle me and 'teach' me a lesson.
Quote:--"BCV?? "Good will to your neighbor."--
What may you think BCV means ?
BCV Stands for Book Chapter and Verse of the bible.
I am asking for a biblical citation for your message or quotation.
Quote:--"are you Mormon?"--
No, I'm not a Mormon. Why did you ask that question ?
As I pointed out before most of your teachings do not seem Scriptural. You claim to be christian, but do not claim a specific denomination. I ask for BCV you question my faith... Again mormon behavior. What denomination or non denomination are you if not mormon?
Quote:--I think, traumatized person needs more than words. and the specifics of a situation should dictate how the traumatized person should be approached. Timid people get the same evaluation as anyone else.
Start with the truth and carefully reflect back tone timber escalate and or deescalate as needed.
Again all should be based on what the second command says. Treat others as you would want to be treated.--
Quote:I use goodwill to your neighbour as yourself. I work to speak in unbiased tone and with patience.
[/quote]If that is how you wish to be treated then your on the right track... Just do not assume all want to be treated the same way. When traumatized I may want or even need a good smack to get my head back in the situation.. It's all about what 'we' want or expect from others, that is why Christ did not saddle us with 'good will' nonsense when issuing this command. Rather he gave us the freedom to help those in need in the same way we would expect to receive it.
