(June 24, 2016 at 3:47 pm)Losty Wrote: I don't agree that it was a good choice, but I still think it's great that you actually looked into this and did research before voting. If you told me that it was because you hate immigrants or because you love vaping then I would think your reason is really stupid.

Honestly Losty this is the most massive misconception I've seen from Americans having their say here. Not just on this forum, but on reddit, facebook, all manner of social media.

They think this was about us wanting to boot out all the filthy immigrants and that the leave people are uneducated numpties who want to give the finger to the establishment.

I have no doubts in some cases this is true, but I have had a lot of conversations with real people who voted in this. I've discussed and debated with people voting to remain. What strikes me (and yes, this is just my personal experience) is that actually, the most informed, the people who actually seem to have looked into it, are the people who voted leave.

There's immense stupidity on both sides. But I find it really insulting that people seem to think that the remain option was the one backed by 'intellectuals'. Actually I think the reason more young well educated people voted for remain is less to do with intellect and more to do with your class. (ie working class, upper class).

(June 24, 2016 at 3:57 pm)madog Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 2:50 pm)Losty Wrote: Who says it's without established grounds? Is that your opinion or is that a fact?  

Fact ... opinion doesn't need evidence ... Fact needs empirical evidence ..... there was none two tears ago and there is still none to this day ....

It's possible that we need a new thread for this, being that in all honesty vaping has nothing to do with the U.K. leaving the EU. But I'm curious about this...what counts as established grounds?

Napo Wrote:Leave camp instead promoted at least SOME hope. Something positive.

False hope, false promises, a denial of reality, a self-assfucking of our country and a mistaking isolation for independence, you mean.

(June 24, 2016 at 4:03 pm)Losty Wrote: what counts as established grounds?

Whatever madog thinks is correct.

(June 24, 2016 at 4:00 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 3:47 pm)Losty Wrote: I don't agree that it was a good choice, but I still think it's great that you actually looked into this and did research before voting. If you told me that it was because you hate immigrants or because you love vaping then I would think your reason is really stupid.

Honestly Losty this is the most massive misconception I've seen from Americans having their say here. Not just on this forum, but on reddit, facebook, all manner of social media.

They think this was about us wanting to boot out all the filthy immigrants and that the leave people are uneducated numpties who want to give the finger to the establishment.

I have no doubts in some cases this is true, but I have had a lot of conversations with real people who voted in this. I've discussed and debated with people voting to remain. What strikes me (and yes, this is just my personal experience) is that actually, the most informed, the people who actually seem to have looked into it, are the people who voted leave.

There's immense stupidity on both sides. But I find it really insulting that people seem to think that the remain option was the one backed by 'intellectuals'. Actually I think the reason more young well educated people voted for remain is less to do with intellect and more to do with your class. (ie working class, upper class).

I wasn't making an accusation against you or anyone else. We can only know what we see though and I have seen people saying they like the leave option because they hate immigrants. It doesn't necessarily mean that's the only reason. I was only saying, as long as that's not your reason then I respect your choice to vote however you think is best for your country.

(June 24, 2016 at 4:07 pm)Losty Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 4:00 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Honestly Losty this is the most massive misconception I've seen from Americans having their say here. Not just on this forum, but on reddit, facebook, all manner of social media.

They think this was about us wanting to boot out all the filthy immigrants and that the leave people are uneducated numpties who want to give the finger to the establishment.

I have no doubts in some cases this is true, but I have had a lot of conversations with real people who voted in this. I've discussed and debated with people voting to remain. What strikes me (and yes, this is just my personal experience) is that actually, the most informed, the people who actually seem to have looked into it, are the people who voted leave.

There's immense stupidity on both sides. But I find it really insulting that people seem to think that the remain option was the one backed by 'intellectuals'. Actually I think the reason more young well educated people voted for remain is less to do with intellect and more to do with your class. (ie working class, upper class).

I wasn't making an accusation against you or anyone else. We can only know what we see though and I have seen people saying they like the leave option because they hate immigrants. It doesn't necessarily mean that's the only reason. I was only saying, as long as that's not your reason then I respect your choice to vote however you think is best for your country.

Did they really say they hated immigrants or did they say they wanted stricter border control? There's a difference.

Oh?  Is it how many times they wink and with which eye? How do you view our homegrown "we want better border control" mob? I haven't had any trouble deciphering their motivations.

(June 24, 2016 at 4:03 pm)Losty Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 3:57 pm)madog Wrote: Fact ... opinion doesn't need evidence ... Fact needs empirical evidence ..... there was none two tears ago and there is still none to this day ....

It's possible that we need a new thread for this, being that in all honesty vaping has nothing to do with the U.K. leaving the EU. But I'm curious about this...what counts as established grounds?

These are the actual grounds, included in the Directive, for the ban ....

"Therefore, it is necessary to approximate the national provisions on advertising and sponsorship of those
products having cross-border effects, taking as a base a high level of protection of human health. Electronic
cigarettes can develop into a gateway to nicotine addiction and ultimately traditional tobacco consumption, as they mimic and normalize the action of smoking. For this reason, it is appropriate to adopt a restrictive approach to advertising electronic cigarettes and refill containers."

Even those that were originally hostile such as Ash and many national health services, including the NHS have since refuted this and given substantial evidence that it is rare for none smokers to take up vaping ....

At the time the EU made the claim to warrant the exception to Art,10 there wasn't any figures, so even if later figures had have supported the EU, which they don't, they still breached Art.10 as the grounds were not "Established" when they made the directive ...

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(June 24, 2016 at 4:07 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 4:03 pm)Losty Wrote: what counts as established grounds?

Whatever madog thinks is correct.

I tell you what, tell me what you consider as "Established" grounds and see if you can apply them to the EU directive .. also see my reply to Losty ...

(June 24, 2016 at 4:08 pm)Bella Morte Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 4:07 pm)Losty Wrote: I wasn't making an accusation against you or anyone else. We can only know what we see though and I have seen people saying they like the leave option because they hate immigrants. It doesn't necessarily mean that's the only reason. I was only saying, as long as that's not your reason then I respect your choice to vote however you think is best for your country.

Did they really say they hated immigrants or did they say they wanted stricter border control? There's a difference.

Depends on the person but if you think there are no people who hate immigrants and/or voted based on racism, you're wrong. Hang out on social media and you'll find there are tons of people who will gladly tell you they voted because they hate those filthy immigrants and they want to keep Britain British and other things that jerkoffs love to say. Maybe they're the minority but they definitely exist.

(June 24, 2016 at 11:41 am)Minimalist Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 11:14 am)Tiberius Wrote: Now that Cameron has resigned, what are the odds that Boris Johnson will be the new leader of the Conservative party and therefore Prime Minister? I've predicted that for several years now, but I never thought it would happen in this way. Boris is generally well-liked by his party, and he's just won a major political victory.

For that matter what are the odds that Scotland, N. Ireland and Wales will bail on Britain?

Not Wales, too many little Englanders. Scotland almost definitely, and when the unionists see what NI looks like without EU money (what Westminster gives them is barely more than the taxes paid in NI) I wouldn't be too suprised if they get a bit lukewarm towards a united Ireland.