(June 24, 2016 at 4:45 pm)Expired Wrote: Yeah people generally oh fuck it I cant be arsed

Yeah, better that way, since your only retorts are insults and outbursts.

(June 24, 2016 at 4:46 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: So, is there anything concrete that the Brexiters hope to gain by leaving the EU?  Anything beyond some vague notion of increased sovereignty?

I'm sure that if it's concrete they wanted, Farage will gladly cover what remains of the country with it

(June 24, 2016 at 4:41 pm)Bella Morte Wrote: They're not worth your time. Nothing you say here will change their minds. You, Nap and I will be laughing at them all in a couple of years time.  

You keep telling yourself that.

(June 24, 2016 at 3:57 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Assuming this was mostly directed at me, I would like to point out I don't think I ever said "everyone" who voted didn't understand the issues. My point was most people didn't, and I stand by that view. The EU is a complex beast; it can't be explained to the average person, not because the average person isn't intelligent, but because the average person doesn't have a clue when it comes to complex economic issues. If they did, well, then the average person would be very rich and powerful.

I even admitted that I didn't fully understand the issues, which is why if I had voted, I would have voted "Remain" because the economic experts (i.e. the people we are supposed to trust to know these things, and the people who the government relies on for financial advice) predicted economic collapse, the start of which we may very well be seeing today.

To start with, it wasn't aimed at you in particular but you do seem to share the view I'm contesting. Whether you specify everyone or most your argument is much the same.

I understand where you're coming from, but who are you to say whether the general public are qualified to vote on your criteria on any issue? Where do you draw the line? What do you use as the barometer for the 'average person'?

You either trust the population to make an informed decision, or not. And an informed decision doesn't necessarily mean you have to know the ramifications of every possible outcome. It doesn't mean you have to have a full understanding of the issue either in my view.

In terms of the experts, I've already mentioned my point on this one. In my view the views of financial experts matter very little given how often they get it wrong, and actually, in this debate, it was virtually impossible to find an independent source without bias. (I predict you'll say I obviously didn't look hard enough but I'd disagree)

Quote:If you think the EU was "wholly" undemocratic then I'm sorry but you clearly aren't "reasonably informed". Nigel Farage, the leader of UKIP, is an elected member of the European Parliament. These people represent your views in the EU. In fact, the EU parliament is *more* democratic than the UK parliament, because they don't use a first past the post system to elect representatives, but rather a proportional representation.

Yes I'm aware that Nigel Farage is an MEP. I find his speeches in the European Parliament quite amusing actually.

Perhaps I am mistaken in using the phrase "wholly". I'll give you that. But you can dress it up however you want. You cannot vote out Jean Claude Juncker. You cannot vote out Donald Tusk. You cannot vote out Martin Schulz. That is undemocratic. I did not get a chance to elect these people yet they lead. And they behave like veritable mafia bosses.

While I agree the FPTP system is shite and I hate it and view it as one of the worst political forms of representation, it is still more democratic than not having a vote at all.

Yes, we do vote people in to 'represent us' in Europe. How much that representation actually affects and matters though is up for debate.

Quote:Also, just because the EU was not something you ever signed up for doesn't mean it is undemocratic. You never signed up for the Magna Carta either, or the way we currently run elections. Americans today never signed up for the Constitution. The fact remains that all those systems, and the EU, were democratic.

True enough but that wasn't really the point. It's more that having some say on being a part of the union is better and more democratic than none at all.

Similarly, having some say on how we run elections is better than no say at all.

Quote:You are conflating two issues. Economic experts are experts on the economy, they are not pollsters. Pointing out that economic experts got a prediction about people voting wrong and claiming that as a reason we shouldn't trust them is like saying you shouldn't trust a mechanic to repair your car because he didn't choose the correct numbers in the lottery.

Yep, I am. I concede that one. I can think of many more reasons not to trust trust the 'experts' however. And by this I also include heads of state who told us we would be back of the queue.

Quote:I know you, you're not a xenophobe or racist, or a moron. I do think however that you were misled by extremists who even now are backtracking on things they said to try and win the vote.

You're referring to Nigel Farage I assume on Good Morning Britain? He was asked quite a specific question. Can he guarantee the 350 million on his bus poster would go to the NHS. Well, if he's being completely honest, that answer has to be no. He cannot guarantee it will go to the NHS because he doesn't have control of the money does he? For starters that claim was never made in the first place. No backtracking here.

But if you do want to talk about backtracking, let's talk about Obama. Let's talk about Clinton. Let's talk about all the manufacturers around the world who have declared their commitment to the UK. Let's talk about the fact that in the EU's own press release they say this:

"As regards the United Kingdom, we hope to have it as a close partner of the European Union in the future."

This flies in the face of ALL of the fear mongering we were told in this referendum. So yeah. Again, it comes down to being patronisingly told what to do. We can judge for ourselves. We have judged for ourselves. The vote is done. Let's get the fuck on with it instead of acting as if the UK has just fallen off the side of the Earth.

(June 24, 2016 at 4:56 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: You keep telling yourself that.

Lol, you too.

(June 24, 2016 at 4:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No, it didn't, the pound hasn't dipped as low as it did today in 30 years.  That's a working generations worth of wealth evaporating in minutes.

They mean a single drop in one go. Look at this 5 year chart from 2011. 1.1070 Pounds to the Euro back in June 2011. Add in handling fees and you start getting close to parity. Unfortunately the graph for 10 years isn't very clear but it used to be 1.5 Pounds to the Euro.

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GBPEU...ng%22:true}

Edit: Sorry, dropped relative to what in 30 years? We might be talking about different things here.

That's a relative value, when the euro wasn't worth what it is today.  I understand where you're coming from, though.

(June 24, 2016 at 4:56 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 4:41 pm)Bella Morte Wrote: They're not worth your time. Nothing you say here will change their minds. You, Nap and I will be laughing at them all in a couple of years time.  

You keep telling yourself that.

Yeah because no experts are saying it, or anyone with any basic knowledge of economics. This is why Michael Gove had to dismiss experts as useless.

(June 24, 2016 at 5:03 pm)Rhythm Wrote: That's a relative value, when the euro wasn't worth what it is today.  I understand where you're coming from, though.

Ah right. After posting I suddenly realised that the Euro wasn't in existence 30 years ago and that we were talking about different things.

(June 24, 2016 at 4:48 pm)abaris Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 4:45 pm)Expired Wrote: Yeah people generally oh fuck it I cant be arsed

Yeah, better that way, since your only retorts are insults and outbursts.

I never called anyone anything.... apart from now cunt