(June 26, 2016 at 9:26 am)madog Wrote:

(June 26, 2016 at 9:16 am)Emjay Wrote: I'm sorry but it wasn't... his argument has been trivialised to being about vaping when that was just an example. I think he makes a good point about the EU not being bound by the ECHR. Not a good enough point to make me change my position but enough to be worth thinking about and something to hope to change if we get the EU back.

Thanks ... yes and I could agree with staying in the EU if they finally, after 42 years accede to the ECHR an actual requirement of any Nation joining the EU.

It is obscene that the EU dictate that to join their club you must first be a member of the Council of Europe and to be a member of the Council of Europe you must ratify the ECHR ..... When the EU refuse to accede ....

The actually reality of the above is an EU Directive can be made that breaches the ECHR and the EU members must comply, yet their membership of the EU doesn't release them from their ECHR obligations .... They are then liable to EU sanctions or ECHR sanctions, depending if they do or do not comply with an EU directive that breaches the ECHR ...

Just actually think about that ....

Perhaps this situation could actually put pressure on them to comply? The fact that they've now seen that half the UK is willing to leave the EU? Maybe the referendum could be a blessing in disguise?

(June 26, 2016 at 9:32 am)Emjay Wrote: Perhaps this situation could actually put pressure on them to comply? The fact that they've now seen that half the UK is willing to leave the EU? Maybe the referendum could be a blessing in disguise?

I hope so, as I actually prefer being in a united European, even world club, however not at any cost and certainly not at the expense of Human Right principles that have been fought for well before the EU was even a dream ....

(June 26, 2016 at 9:16 am)Emjay Wrote: I'm sorry but it wasn't... his argument has been trivialised to being about vaping when that was just an example. I think he makes a good point about the EU not being bound by the ECHR. Not a good enough point to make me change my position but enough to be worth thinking about and something to hope to change if we get the EU back.

It might be worth mentioning at this point, that the current government is planning to repeal the 1998 Human Rights Act, which is what protects the rights of British citizens, afforded by the European Convention on Human Rights. This - together with leaving the EU - would likely mean UK withdrawing from ECHR altogether.

Quote:The return of a majority Conservative government in last week’s general election in the UK has made the Conservative Party’s plans for reforming human rights law in the United Kingdom a likely prospect. It is recalled that on 3 October 2014, the Conservative Party published a policy document that sets out its proposal to repeal the Human Rights Act 1998 (HRA) and replace it with a British Bill of Rights.

http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/the-legal-impli...an-rights/

Here's the pdf of the policy document in question, if anyone fancies a read. https://www.conservatives.com/~/media/fi...rights.pdf

Here are some bits:

Quote: [...]Our reforms will mean that:
• The European Court of Human Rights is no longer binding over the UK Supreme Court.
• The European Court of Human Rights is no longer able to order a change in UK law and
becomes an advisory body only.[...]

In other words - the Conservatives don't want to be bound by ECHR either.

Quote:The key objectives of our new Bill are:
[...]
• Limit the use of human rights laws to the most serious cases. The use of the new law will be
limited to cases that involve criminal law and the liberty of an individual, the right to property
and similar serious matters.[...]

"Most serious cases", huh? Will that include cases of people prevented from "commercially communicating" about vaping, or will human rights laws not apply to such trivial matters? I wonder.

Quote:[...]
• In the event that we are unable to reach that agreement, the UK would be left with no
alternative but to withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights, at the point
at which our Bill comes into effect. [...]

To sum up - because EU allegedly is not bound by ECHR, UK should withdraw from both EU and ECHR...

As for what the new Bill of Rights, concocted by the Torys will look like - I'll leave it to your imaginations...

(June 26, 2016 at 9:58 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote: It might be worth mentioning at this point, that the current government is planning to repeal the 1998 Human Rights Act, which is what protects the rights of British citizens, afforded by the European Convention on Human Rights. This - together with leaving the EU - would likely mean UK withdrawing from ECHR altogether.

Quote: 

The UK Human Rights act is the ECHR incorporated into the UK national law .... removing it does not effect the ECHR 
It allows the Courts to look to the ECHR above UK law in its decision making .... If the UK Courts, even using their interpretation of the ECHR, get it wrong the issue can still go to the ECHR ...
Politicians spouting about what they don't understand or just to gain votes is irrelevant 

(June 26, 2016 at 10:11 am)madog Wrote: [...]Politicians spouting about what they don't understand or just to gain votes is irrelevant 

Really? So what/who's going to stop Conservative government from withdrawing from ECHR, if their new "Bill of Rights" is not accepted by the committee? Pressure from EU? Ooops - not anymore.

(June 26, 2016 at 9:58 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(June 26, 2016 at 9:16 am)Emjay Wrote: I'm sorry but it wasn't... his argument has been trivialised to being about vaping when that was just an example. I think he makes a good point about the EU not being bound by the ECHR. Not a good enough point to make me change my position but enough to be worth thinking about and something to hope to change if we get the EU back.

It might be worth mentioning at this point, that the current government is planning to repeal the 1998 Human Rights Act, which is what protects the rights of British citizens, afforded by the European Convention on Human Rights. This - together with leaving the EU - would likely mean UK withdrawing from ECHR altogether.

Quote:The return of a majority Conservative government in last week’s general election in the UK has made the Conservative Party’s plans for reforming human rights law in the United Kingdom a likely prospect. It is recalled that on 3 October 2014, the Conservative Party published a policy document that sets out its proposal to repeal the Human Rights Act 1998 (HRA) and replace it with a British Bill of Rights.

http://ohrh.law.ox.ac.uk/the-legal-impli...an-rights/

Here's the pdf of the policy document in question, if anyone fancies a read. https://www.conservatives.com/~/media/fi...rights.pdf

Here are some bits:

Quote: [...]Our reforms will mean that:
• The European Court of Human Rights is no longer binding over the UK Supreme Court.
• The European Court of Human Rights is no longer able to order a change in UK law and
becomes an advisory body only.[...]

In other words - the Conservatives don't want to be bound by ECHR either.

Quote:The key objectives of our new Bill are:
[...]
• Limit the use of human rights laws to the most serious cases. The use of the new law will be
limited to cases that involve criminal law and the liberty of an individual, the right to property
and similar serious matters.[...]

"Most serious cases", huh? Will that include cases of people prevented from "commercially communicating" about vaping, or will human rights laws not apply to such trivial matters? I wonder.

Quote:[...]
• In the event that we are unable to reach that agreement, the UK would be left with no
alternative but to withdraw from the European Convention on Human Rights, at the point
at which our Bill comes into effect. [...]

To sum up - because EU allegedly is not bound by ECHR, UK should withdraw from both EU and ECHR...

As for what the new Bill of Rights, concocted by the Torys will look like - I'll leave it to your imaginations...

Another reason to campaign for a general election before Article 50 is enacted (if it is). Screw the Tories!

The one time David Cameron did something right, he failed and then resigned. And having him on our side can't have been good for us Remainers.

(June 26, 2016 at 10:19 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(June 26, 2016 at 10:11 am)madog Wrote: [...]Politicians spouting about what they don't understand or just to gain votes is irrelevant 

Really? So what/who's going to stop Conservative government from withdrawing from ECHR, if their new "Bill of Rights" is not accepted by the committee? Pressure from EU? Ooops - not anymore.

We could be here all day if we want to discuss a political parties policies ....

A party in power could with difficulty revoke the 1998  HRA and adopt a Human Rights bill, again this would not affect the ECHR it would just mean victims would need to go through the UK Courts that would then ignore the ECHR (to exhaust all effective remedies Art.13 ECHR) ... before then going to the ECHR.

It would be a different matter to try to break with the ECHR .... I very much doubt the Conservatives could get enough support to do so in their own party, and certainly not across the parties ..... But even then, it would be beyond the belief that the Lords would accept it ....

UK to leave the EU. WTF!
When is this happening.

(June 26, 2016 at 11:05 am)Little lunch Wrote: UK to leave the EU. WTF!
When is this happening.

At the moment, nobody knows, and apparently there wasn't even a plan in place for this eventuality. The word "clusterfuck" comes to mind.