(June 27, 2016 at 11:17 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 11:09 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: So you read the part where 

"The EU has admitted that TTIP will probably cause unemployment as jobs switch to the US, where labour standards and trade union rights are lower. It has even advised EU members to draw on European support funds to compensate for the expected unemployment.

Examples from other similar bi-lateral trade agreements around the world support the case for job losses.  The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) between the US, Canada and Mexico caused the loss of one million US jobs over 12 years, instead of the hundreds of thousands of extra that were promised."

It seems to me like the data and evidence on the issue is unclear. The EU is certainly good for the UK, Europe and the world as a whole in my opinion as a Remainer. In your opinion as a Leaver I at least know you consider the EU bad for the UK. I don't know where you stand regarding its effects on Europe and the world as a whole.

As for the TTIP, I am not sure it has a particularly good effect on the UK or Europe... the evidence seems unclear on that. I don't know what to think based on the mixed data. But I smell a rat of a conspiracy theory especially considering the following: If the TTIP is so evil why isn't the whole world against stopping it? If the TTIP has a positive purpose for the world as a whole then it's my view that it's probably also good for Europe and the UK. Although, I'm still not sure what to think.

But ultimately it's the world as a whole I care about anyway. If the TTIP is so powerful and effects both America and the EU and if it's also so dangerous.... why isn't the whole world out to stop it?

I was actually what was called a floating voter when the referendum was announced.  I voted leave after much deliberation and trying to sift through all the absolute shite that was on offer.

It came down to, for me at least, the prospect of deeper political and financial integration that will happen in Europe and when push comes to shove, I simply chose not to be a part of it.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:27 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: So would it be fair to say that you agree that there perhaps is a lot of conspiracy theory regarding the TTIP but that doesn't mean it isn't without fault?

Which I pretty much already said. The difference lies in how you deal with the problem at hand. Constructively by demanding improvement or by blowing it out of proportion to cash in on your own agenda.

I think the way I see it is the problem is the long term is what matters most but it is the long term that is most hazy and difficult to predict. So if the immediate short term results is an economic clusterfuck promises that things will get better is no good because there's no way we can predict that but generally speaking a short-term economic clusterfuck leads to long term at-best-not-as-economically-okay-as-we-could-have-been-and-at-worst-economically-rather-fucked.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:31 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I think the way I see it is the problem is the long term is what matters most but it is the long term that is most hazy and difficult to predict. So if the immediate short term results is an economic clusterfuck promises that things will get better is no good because there's no way we can predict that but generally speaking a short-term economic clusterfuck leads to long term at-best-not-as-economically-okay-as-we-could-have-been-and-at-worst-economically-rather-fucked.

Come back to me in 5 years, we will be fine.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:31 am)abaris Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 11:27 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: So would it be fair to say that you agree that there perhaps is a lot of conspiracy theory regarding the TTIP but that doesn't mean it isn't without fault?

Which I pretty much already said. The difference lies in how you deal with the problem at hand. Constructively by demanding improvement or by blowing it out of proportion to cash in on your own agenda.

Agreed.

I think changing my opinion on the EU based on rumors about secret plotting of the TTIP would be a mistake.

For starters it looks to me like the EU is rather anti-TTIP? Wouldn't having the UK on their side be a good thing if they're suspicious of the TTIP and if the TTIP really is The Big Bad Wolf Conspiring To Get Us that some believe it is?

(June 27, 2016 at 11:32 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 11:31 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I think the way I see it is the problem is the long term is what matters most but it is the long term that is most hazy and difficult to predict. So if the immediate short term results is an economic clusterfuck promises that things will get better is no good because there's no way we can predict that but generally speaking a short-term economic clusterfuck leads to long term at-best-not-as-economically-okay-as-we-could-have-been-and-at-worst-economically-rather-fucked.

Come back to me in 5 years, we will be fine.

That doesn't mean we couldn't have been finer.

ETA:

Me Wrote:I think the way I see it is the problem is the long term is what matters most but it is the long term that is most hazy and difficult to predict. So if the immediate short term results is an economic clusterfuck promises that things will get better is no good because there's no way we can predict that but generally speaking a short-term economic clusterfuck leads to long term at-best-not-as-economically-okay-as-we-could-have-been-and-at-worst-economically-rather-fucked.

Bold added. Because already addressed.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:34 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 11:32 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: Come back to me in 5 years, we will be fine.

That doesn't mean we couldn't have been finer.

OK, let's turn this around, as I'm interested.....why are you so staunchly pro-EU?

Primarily because we still have to trade with the EU and the EU has a lot of powerful influence and now we're not going to be part of it that makes everything more difficult. Secondarily because our economy is going downhill already as the majority of economic experts predicted it would if we left the EU: And I don't know of any evidence why this short-term economic loss will somehow lead to long-term economic gain.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:32 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: Come back to me in 5 years, we will be fine.

Which, given that the economy still hasn't fully recovered since 2008, doesn't offer much consolation. An already ailing economy - and by that I mean all of Europe, UK included - just took another hit. According to todays data, there's no sign of recovery. Not even a sign for a stop to the downhill race.

#ohfucksendmetoamericaalready