Also, if this is the one and only demonstration of truth, how come all the other theists haven't figured it out? Why aren't they flocking to this popular one?

They all seem just as sure they have it right.

(July 13, 2016 at 12:43 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: What does evangelical mean in this case?  Does it include snake oil like prosperity gospel?  Because I could see "get salvation fast" as being a lot more palatable to people than other forms of Christianity, and thus poaching from the other groups.

I think prosperity gospel churches are a small sliver of the evangelical slice of Christianity. I would consider a protestant denomination evangelical if a significant focus is placed on evangelism (the spreading of the Christian gospel by public preaching or personal witness). I think these churches grow faster because they are generally more committed, conservative, and place more emphasis on inner change.

(July 13, 2016 at 1:12 pm)robvalue Wrote: So, let's see...

The only bonus anyone has offered so far is that the religion is attractive to new members. But they don't actually get anything out of being in it. Wow, God is just too generous.

It doesn't offer any evidence at all that there is any truth to the religion. At least not evidence I'd consider credible. It just show how good people are at converting other people, or how much influence the religion already has. It's a classic appeal to popularity fallacy.

If someone is seriously suggesting that God is granting this power to draw in more followers, but nothing else, then that is a bizarre setup for sure. Sounds like a pyramid scheme. He's making the religion seem attractive, when it actually has nothing to offer. How deceptive.

What are you rambling on about? No one made any of those points. Address people if you want a reply or clarification.

Quote:The only bonus anyone has offered so far is that the religion is attractive to new members.

I wonder what sort of half-assed rationale he will come up with for the ones who tell religion to fuck off?

(July 13, 2016 at 1:40 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(July 13, 2016 at 1:12 pm)robvalue Wrote: So, let's see...

The only bonus anyone has offered so far is that the religion is attractive to new members. But they don't actually get anything out of being in it. Wow, God is just too generous.

It doesn't offer any evidence at all that there is any truth to the religion. At least not evidence I'd consider credible. It just show how good people are at converting other people, or how much influence the religion already has. It's a classic appeal to popularity fallacy.

If someone is seriously suggesting that God is granting this power to draw in more followers, but nothing else, then that is a bizarre setup for sure. Sounds like a pyramid scheme. He's making the religion seem attractive, when it actually has nothing to offer. How deceptive.

What are you rambling on about? No one made any of those points. Address people if you want a reply or clarification.

I wasn't asking for either, thanks very much.

(July 12, 2016 at 5:15 pm)robvalue Wrote: We have loads of different theistic religions in the world right now. And every one of those claims to be the "real religion". They have it right, and everyone else has it wrong. They're worshipping the real god(s), in the correct way.

What would we expect to see from this? Let's pretend that one of these current religions is the real one.

Wouldn't it be absurdly obvious which one this is? Wouldn't those following the correct religion have some sort of noticable advantage? If God is doing anything at all in return for the worship it is receiving, wouldn't this be clear to all?

What I see is a bunch of people all claiming to have this amazing being on their side, yet none of them are any better off than any others because of it. I can only conclude that either none of them have it right, or God's blessings are so insignificant that I don't even notice them.

Religions are institutions.  If anything had a claim on being the 'real religion' it would have to be something that isn't institutional to avoid the predicament you point out.  Maybe a shaman could stake a claim to being involved with real religion, but then he wouldn't be handing on any institutional dogma.

(July 12, 2016 at 5:15 pm)robvalue Wrote: Wouldn't it be absurdly obvious which one this is? Wouldn't those following the correct religion have some sort of noticable advantage? If God is doing anything at all in return for the worship it is receiving, wouldn't this be clear to all?

The west, being primarily christian, seems to be prospering; high standard of living compared to alternate religious/state combinations.

Isn't that proof enough!? 

The atheists are prospering just as much as the Christians, so not really

So are all the Muslims and everyone else in the West.

(July 13, 2016 at 12:37 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(July 13, 2016 at 3:35 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Your figures are a charade.

If you are replying to me, I don't remember using numbers. However, my point was that if we use adult conversions as a measure, we see that evangelical protestant Christianity seems to be the most compelling of the "loads of different theistic religions" that Rob observed.  If this conversion rate comparison was true for the past 2000 years (which it could be argued that, on average, it was) that indicates that Christianity is more compelling than other religions. 

Does compelling = true? No, not necessarily. But I think it is reasonable to conclude that adult conversions should be taken as a "vote" on the truth claims of any religion. 

Or it could simply be a reflection of the fact that there are more Christians, period.  You're cherry picking Steve.  Since Christians aren't increasing in relative numbers you pick one statistic where they arguably have been making gains.  I note you've yet to back up that claim with any relevant data.  A table of U.S. conversions which shows that most are voting 'no' to affiliation with a religion isn't relevant. If adult conversion rates are high relatively speaking, that can only mean retention numbers are poor relatively speaking, because you aren't making any gains worldwide.  And the following graph shows that:  high numbers in Africa and Asia, low numbers in Europe.



Christian representation has been keeping par with global birth rates for over a century.  That's not a vote of confidence.  It's treading water.

And I think they are getting tired. Wonder if they know they are in the shallow end?