I couldn't possibly provide all the food they need, in perpetuity....if for no other reason than my mortality.  There may actually -be- no way for us to provide all of the food we need in perpetuity, we're already -not- producing all the food we need...and that has nothing to do with anyone's political leanings or any particular agricultural model.

 I'm not sure I'm really coming through here.  If I'm a liberal..that's me -being- a liberal.  Financial positioning, subtle and subversive advertising, seeking the greatest possible return on an acre and on my investment, running an efficient -business-. I'm not interested in, or chasing, utopia. I'm not concerned with your (or anyone's) cycnical view of human nature. To turn that oft cited non-wisdom you offered earlier...I give a man a delicious fish....and he comes back the next day and asks if I have any more.

(July 22, 2016 at 5:33 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

(July 22, 2016 at 5:30 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

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Honestly though, who -wouldn't- want to feed everyone for free if they could manage it?  What kind of asshole hears that and thinks to themselves "what a shitty idea, let's spit on it".....?  Whoever pulls that off will have done a greater service to humanity than arguably anyone who'd come before them, and probably the great majority that would come after them.

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I'll tell you why it's such a shitty idea. Because it promotes laziness. If everyone can get all they need and want for nothing, human ingenuity stops. Progress stops.

The day everyone can get all they need and want for nothing is the day human suffering stops. Your fears are irrational. Human ingenuity and progress aren't only predicated on making our lives better. That's more of a side-effect. They are outcomes of our curious and perseverent natures. We can't escape our biology as easily as that, and biology is what makes us who we are.

(July 22, 2016 at 5:37 pm)Imaginaryfriendless Wrote:

(July 22, 2016 at 5:23 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

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On a right wing forum id probably get called a liberal faggot, on this forum I'll get told I'm a bigot who doesn't care about racism with a thinly vailed agenda.

I've been told there is an actual positive correlation between being liberal and being an atheist but it was on a video and I don't remember the precise statistics.

I don't think I know enough about politics to even pick a side, I'm just happy questioning ideas both sides has to offer.

It's rare that I question any right wing ideals on this forums because 1 they're quite rare. 2 there's so many liberals on this forum if someone did start a thread with even a hint of right wing tendencies it would get bombarded with replies from everyone else anyway.

I mean there's about 1000 threads saying fuck Donald trump, fuck the police, fuck the FBI, and there's significantly less threads about fuck black lives matter fuck Bernie sanders and so on.

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I've noticed that...most folks here seem to at least think they care about people,yet I have seen no anger directed at our homegrown terrorist organization. No black man alive today was ever enslaved by the US, and frankly their own people sold them to the slave traders. If they hadn't come here they'd probably be lying in the mud somewhere in africa dying of Ebola or AIDS. There is so much reverse discrimination now it's ridiculous. Slavery was a terrible thing, but many countries still do it, many people are suffering and dying right now in slavery...these US blacks have everything at their fingertips- loads of scholarships ands grants for black folks, but instead many of them just draw welfare or unemployment and sit on their butts, or sell drugs, and complain that they have been slaves! So they want more free stuff.

Unless they were born in Africa and moved to the US, there is no need for hyphens. They are just AMERICANS. Not "African-Americans". Ridiculous. 

I feel you, brother.

While I strangely appreciate the thought behind calling them Americans instead of African-Americans, even though I'm not sure where you were going with it, I have to say your remarks are incredibly rasist. Do I think you're a terrible person? No, I simply think you're confused about something and I'll explain in a minute about what. What I wanted to do however was warn you that phrasing your thoughts in that manner is not going to go well with virtually anyone on these forums. You're going to get an incredible amount of flak if you keep talking about a whole race of people being lazy and whatnot, simply because of the color of their skin.

And this is what I wanted to say about your confusion. Don't stereotype. It's not a productive thing to do. You can't know what every black person in America is like, so stop talking about every black person in America. Be a little more nuanced. If you think some black people are lazy and whatnot, then talk about them and only them on a case by case basis. Color has got nothing to do with it, that's just ridiculous to think that it does.

I think every opinion matters and everyone should be a part of the conversation. So I'm definitely not going to react like a lot of folks here are likely to react, I'm not going to dismiss you out of hand for the rasism displayed in the above comment because I know a lot better than to do that. I'll debate anything with you, even race, if it helps us both understand each other a little better, and since we seem to disagree about this at the very least, I'm sure we'd have much to learn from one another.

(July 22, 2016 at 5:57 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(July 22, 2016 at 5:54 pm)Napoléon Wrote:

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What specifically that he said was racist Boru. You're the exact idiot who cries racist at every opportunity. It's basically lefty talk for "I can't be arsed to actually think now". This culture of crying racist is a cancer on free thought.

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This:

Quote:If they hadn't come here they'd probably be lying in the mud somewhere in africa dying of Ebola or AIDS.

I'm not going to parse it for you.  If you can't see the explicit racism in that statement, you've got bigger problems than I can help you with.

And the term is 'exacting idiot', not 'exact idiot', tyvm.

Boru

I don't think that's racist. That's basically true, so how can it be a bad thing to say? It's unfortunate, but I think it's true, isn't it?

I thought the fact that he pretty much called all black people lazy fucks, or something like that, was what was textbook racism. This, though, by itself, isn't necessarily.

(July 22, 2016 at 5:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(July 22, 2016 at 5:53 pm)Napoléon Wrote: You're completely missing my point.

I'm not, you don't have one.  No ones talking about about giving everyone everything on a silver platter..or any platter.  Platters don't grow out of the ground.  Can;t you just let me have this one thing...lol? I just want to try, for a change, to talk to someone who doesn't sound like a paper shredder walking around in human skin.

You can talk to me

(July 22, 2016 at 5:59 pm)Imaginaryfriendless Wrote:

(July 22, 2016 at 5:39 pm)abaris Wrote: Yeah, I'm starting to feel you too. And here I was thinking, you'd turn out to be a reasonable person. OK, I'm outta here before I lose my lunch.

This opinion of mine is based on 8 years of observation and continual contact with these people while in law enforcement- in a city of over 1 million. I've also spent 50 years living and observing, and whether it makes you lose your lunch or not- and it nauseates me, believe me- it is TRUE for a significant number of blacks in this country. They play the victim/entitlement card. I have dealt with it first hand. So where do you get your opposing data?

Still, don't generalize. Your experience alone isn't enough to justify talking about a whole people of a different race than yours residing in your country.

(July 22, 2016 at 6:15 pm)Imaginaryfriendless Wrote:

(July 22, 2016 at 5:52 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: My, you turned out to be a little racist shitstain, didn't you?

Boru

Wow. Where do you live? I would very much like to get together in person to discuss this.

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(July 22, 2016 at 6:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I thought were were exploring the liberal/conservative rift and how it might apply to atheism..not imagining that africa was full of cartoon characters..either now or at any point in the past?

cartoon characters? I don't follow. I made a statement I considered to be factual and got hammered by an idiot calling me racist. I honestly don't see color, I think the entire concept of segregation and discrimination based on pigmentation is the stupidest thing human beings have ever done. I don't pussyfoot around the issue precisely because I am NOT racist- I call a spade a spade, if you will. I'm talking about spades here, not people.

I don't know what turned people today into whiny, wimpy, overly sensitive morons, but I sure hope we find a way to fix it.

I very much agree liberals tend to be fuckwits who shutdown conversation. You can talk to me anytime you want, I'll never throw a tantrum because of a thing you said. If I think what you're saying is wrong, I'll give my reasons and continue the conversation. That's the adult thing to do and it's the way to evolve intellectually by the means of conversation.

(July 22, 2016 at 7:04 pm)Imaginaryfriendless Wrote: Well. That was interesting. I learned some things. 

Liberals are the most intolerant bunch I have ever been associated with,

Liberals blow things out of proportion, for dramatic effect, I presume.

Liberals are overly emotional and waaayyy too sensitive.

I like it here, but the judgmental bullshit is hard to take. Wow. One comment, nobody asks for clarification, nobody says "that seems racist, what exactly do you mean?"

Nope. Everybody starts posting derogatory remarks, name calling...pretty damned pathetic. Every liberal group I've ever had anything to do with has been this way.

I have the freedom to say what I want. It's my right. If you disagree, you have the right to confront me. But this pansy ass name calling and belittling...well, I sure wish we could speak in person. 

I'm amazed at the behavior of people who have triple digit IQ's. Wow. Now I REALLY want to start the revolution if Hillary wins. We'd be doomed.

Again, I agree.

Libertarian myself! Libs of course take a sharp right at money. I don't care all that much about money. I take a sharp left a civil liberties and go way far down that road. Way way down the road.

(July 22, 2016 at 7:16 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: I don't think that's racist. That's basically true, so how can it be a bad thing to say? It's unfortunate, but I think it's true, isn't it?

It's racist as fuck. It implies the deseases are somehow their fault and in any case they're too stupid or inferior to fend them off. Which, of course, is ignorant, simplistic, and well - racist.

Ignorant because, as Rhythm already said they didn't choose the situation they're in. I'm not giving a history lecture to someone so obviously being head up ass as this guy in his prejudices. But he pretty much stereotyped every cliché there is on Africans and black people in general. I'm tempted to say, since he offered that he was in law enforcement, there you got your answer why so many black unarmed people die because of police violence. It's systemic and I shudder to think that some people still consider others inferior in the year 2016.

It's something to puke over and nothing to debate, really.

(July 22, 2016 at 7:25 pm)abaris Wrote:

(July 22, 2016 at 7:16 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: I don't think that's racist. That's basically true, so how can it be a bad thing to say? It's unfortunate, but I think it's true, isn't it?

It's racist as fuck. It implies the deseases are somehow their fault and in any case they're too stupid or inferior to fend them off. Which, of course, is ignorant, simplistic, and well - racist.

Ignorant because, as Rhythm already said they didn't choose the situation they're in. I'm not giving a history lecture to someone so obviously being head up ass as this guy in his prejudices. But he pretty much stereotyped every cliché there is on Africans and black people in general. I'm tempted to say, since he offered that he was in law enforcement, there you got your answer why so many black unarmed people die because of police violence. It's systemic and I shudder to think that some people still consider others inferior in the year 2016.

It's something to puke over and nothing to debate, really.

I didn't see that implication at all, I'd like some clarification from the OP if that is indeed what he thinks. I suspect it isn't however, we'll never now for sure though, until he tells us explicitly what he really meant.

I just think he's as complex as every other person on earth and we shouldn't be so quick to judge. I think it would be better if we talked it over with him. If he does indeed hold opinions that are wrong as a matter of fact, let's point them out, tell him why he's wrong, and thus have a conversation.

Point being if we just dismiss every person that makes racist comments and stop talking to them nothing changes. If they're wrong, educate them. That is how you make a difference, not by being disgusted by them and hating them. That doesn't help anyone, really.

I have to disagree. Nothing I said was racist by normal standards. I never said the entire race of blacks was lazy or anything remotely like that. I spoke about a SEGMENT of blacks, I believe I said a significant number, or something similar. It's true- and it is based on skin color, because it's the blacks that feel entitlement because their great great grandfather was a slave. Saying "Black" isn't derogatory, nor is it racist. It's simply descriptive. I could say "the blonde" and all would be well. Same damned thing. I don't have a racist bone in my body. I've dated black girls, I have half a dozen black friends- real friends, not "the guy at Best Buy".

I find you intriguing, but I think these folks would be happier if I left. I don't want to disrupt their little haven.

Good lord, I just saw the bit about Ebola being their fault! LMFAO Where in the fuck did that come from? I was describing the FACTUAL state of that continent right now. Period. These whack jobs turn it into racism because I think the blacks are too dumb to get a vaccine that doesn't exist? Jumping Jesus...complete and utter whack jobs.

(July 22, 2016 at 7:07 pm)Imaginaryfriendless Wrote:

(July 22, 2016 at 6:55 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I don't know how it relates to cartoon characters, but that's how you described africans...who were grinding the earth and all comers to dust under their feet when my ancestors (and I'm guessing yours too) were savages living under piles of mud with grass on the roof.....and that's the point.

If my statistically irrelevant model proves anything..it;s that handing out free food has nothing to do with imagined liberal utopias or laziness or any of that shit.  It's a good way to get a writeoff, it's good pr, it brings my profitable business -to me-, and it eliminates waste in my business model.....all so I can secure an roi orders of magnitude greater than the statistically relevant model.  That's me...apparently being a liberal.  Does that sound super liberal, to you?

Yes. Because you are not providing all of there food they need, in perpetuity. It has to be seen as a permanent fixture, to become a right versus a privilege. THAT is where your problems will begin.

I wrote glowingly of africans, because I've been to Africa and am hugely impressed by their accomplishments. Maasai warriors are amazing, beyond belief. Where in the world did I describe them negatively? You keep referencing Egypt...I've spent considerable time in Cairo. The vast majority of US slaves came from western africa, where they were living in mud huts, not building pyramids.

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(July 22, 2016 at 6:58 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: New Zealand.  I await your arrival with torpid disinterest.

Boru

Figures. Brave man.

*chuckle* Not particularly brave. I'd be just as likely to call you a racist shitstain to your face. I've done it for others, and I'm willing to extend you the same courtesy.

Boru

(July 22, 2016 at 7:35 pm)Imaginaryfriendless Wrote: I have to disagree. Nothing I said was racist by normal standards. I never said the entire race of blacks was lazy or anything remotely like that. I spoke about a SEGMENT of blacks, I believe I said a significant number, or something similar. It's true- and it is based on skin color, because it's the blacks that feel entitlement because their great great grandfather was a slave. Saying "Black" isn't derogatory, nor is it racist. It's simply descriptive. I could say "the blonde" and all would be well. Same damned thing. I don't have a racist bone in my body. I've dated black girls, I have half a dozen black friends- real friends, not "the guy at Best Buy".

I find you intriguing, but I think these folks would be happier if I left. I don't want to disrupt their little haven.

I think a few folk on the forum would be happy to see the back of me as well.

*shrugs*

I would prefer that the difference between a conservative and a liberal isn't that one of them has to constantly educate the other on how absurdly racist and non-factual the things the other say just so happen to be.  Surely, one isn't -required- to be an ignorant bigot regardless of their affiliation.

In any case.  I have a strong suspicion that there's really not a whole lot of difference, in actuality, between conservatives and liberals, except for those manufactured slights that crop up when someone, for example..starts babbling about utopia and the degeneracy of man when presented with an example like giving away free food.  The most strident free market captialist could hear me describe my model and his eyes would turn into a neverending register of cash signs ticking.  It's just good business. Because it happens to -include- rampant charity (with waste and byproduct, no less)......all of a sudden there's a problem, and it's a pinko commie fantasy that won't work (despite it, you know...working..precisely because it -isn't-)...and, in addition..that it will ruin the world in some childish mad max breakdown.....

This, I think, is what people go into this with, when they assign themselves and others these two particular labels "liberal" and "conservative" - in america. It's just ridiculous, top to bottom, anymore.