Quote: my two cents:

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is completely unjust.


This god of yours is impossible and you can keep him.

(May 6, 2011 at 4:32 am)Napoleon666 Wrote:

(May 5, 2011 at 7:01 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Haha, another page from the atheist playbook.

"Ahhh! You demonstrated your argument using logic! I hate logic! *insert ad hominem attack here* There now I feel better!"

Ever thought that atheists use this one so much because they are just banging their heads against a brick wall, against someone who does not address any points made and just continues to post nonsensical shit?

Yeah that's why, i've tried demonstrating why god isn't just but you just skip over any points made and come to your own retarded little conclusions.

I bid you farewell fucktard.

(May 6, 2011 at 6:29 am)Interzone Wrote:

(May 6, 2011 at 5:00 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(May 6, 2011 at 3:48 am)Cinjin Cain Wrote: Some of you christians have some STRANGE ideas of what you think being just is.

God is entirely just. What you object to is the mismatch with your own morals. Compared to moral perfection that's understandable.

Trying to ground justice in God seems to me a very tenuous proposition. Let me explain.

If God is the arbiter of justice, then it follows that justice is entirely arbitrary. The only standard for justice, in this definition, is God's whim. So if God were to say that murder is just, then you must accept murder as being just.

On the other hand, if justice is objective and not arbitrary, then it must be separate from God. That is, the variables of justice are concrete, and immune to even God's will. Of course, this means that God is not omnipotent and "all powerful" as the bible claims. For example, if murder is unjust, then it is because murder is unjust in and of itself, and NOT because God says it's unjust.

The dilemma is obvious. If you accept the first definition, then you must accept that God is a moral relativist. What is good and bad is determined by God, and not by some absolute truth. However, if you believe there is an absolute truth, then even God cannot change what is true or not (hence the term, absolute), meaning that God is not omnipotent.

The first definition makes biblical sense. It would explain why God could order the genocide of Amalakites and Midianites, yet at the same time command his people not to murder/kill in the Ten Commandments. It makes God a hypocrite, but since only God can determine what is just, we could not question him. It also means that if God were tell us to murder and rape our neighbors, it would be perfectly just for us to do so.

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(May 6, 2011 at 4:33 am)Godschild Wrote: Let's get something straight here GOD'S creation was perfect, man (Adam) allowed sin to come into God's perfect creation and corrupt it, man is responsible for the imperfection in this world not God.

(May 6, 2011 at 9:09 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(May 5, 2011 at 4:36 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: I think we are confusing terms here. When I say "Free Will" I mean an actual free libertarian will where man is just as likely to sin as not sin and he can freely choose to accept God's grace. Man does not have that. Rather man has a will, but it is a will that has been clouded by sin, he is actually described as being dead in sin. So he chooses to sin because he wants to sin, and he is unable to choose God without a renewing of his heart. In fact, even when he does good deeds it is not because of himself but rather because God has granted him common grace allowing him to overcome his sinful nature in order to do good deeds. So man is still responsible for his sin. Is that a bit clearer?

No....

(May 6, 2011 at 10:14 am)Skipper Wrote:

(May 6, 2011 at 4:33 am)Godschild Wrote: Let's get something straight here GOD'S creation was perfect, man (Adam) allowed sin to come into God's perfect creation and corrupt it, man is responsible for the imperfection in this world not God.

If he was able to be corrupted by sin then he wasn't perfect.

The fact that gods first attempt at humans was so easily and quickly corrupted by sin means he is a very shoddy workman. I don't see how you can call something that was so easily broken at the first attempt "perfection".

(May 6, 2011 at 4:48 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote:

(May 6, 2011 at 3:53 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: Thanks for actually adding something interesting to the discussion, though I am not sure if your argument really holds up, but maybe it just needs more clarification. First of all, you seem to assume that there is an objective unchanging justice apart from God that He somehow must adhere to. Did I understand this correctly?

I’m holding your god to one standard … a Thesaurus: Fair, well-founded; reasonable, unbiased, ethical, honorable, even-handed … in other words – JUST.
So you tell me -- Are you saying that your god doesn’t have to adhere to the standard definitions of justice and that he can consider any action of his to be just and fair simply because he’s god and doesn’t have to answer for his actions? How wonderful to be part of a religion that can bend rules and definitions whenever they see fit.

Quote:Secondly, a finite sin committed against a perfect being with infinite authority does justly warrant an infinite punishment. I would argue that a finite punishment for sins committed against an infinite authoritative being would be what is actually unjust.

I cannot argue a point of my own that is simply switched around to an illogical conclusion. Apparently you need to look up the term justice, because what you just described is the opposite. I hate offering rebuttals like these, but the only thing I can say here is that according to the definition of justice your rebuttal is completely wrong. I have no other argument. Your conclusion is false because it is illogical.

Quote:This is why Christ had to atone for the sins of those He would save. So I would argue the opposite of what you are arguing. If the Bible said that there was no atonement but man’s punishment for sin was only finite this would appear to me to make God unjust. Your thoughts?

Your god is unjust. There would be little different than if I picked up an ant and told it, “You were born with antennas – you need atonement for this. I could offer you a finite (and undeserved) punishment by ripping your antennas off and allowing you to live. However I’m going to kill you and your entire colony … because I am infinitely more powerful than you.” Neither punishment is warranted. The ant did nothing to be born with antennas and the infinitely harsher punishment could never be considered “just”.
Never mind the fact that if I were god, I would have been the one who actually made those antennas. Which is a point you did not even bother to address in my OP.

I don’t know how a Christian can keep a straight face when they tell people that god is just. There’s just no evidence of this. Please see my Thread called, “I Love You Enough To Burn You”