(May 6, 2011 at 4:05 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(May 5, 2011 at 8:18 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: Xtian view: God gets angry hurt when you deny his existence.
My son has told me that he doesn't like me and he doesn't want to play with me. Admittedly, it hurts.

Xtian views: God, in his hurt and anger prepares a place of does everything to prevent self imposed eternal torment for his child.

Xtian views: God will some day never ever turn his back on you if you don't tell him you love him.

Xtian views: God You will burn you in a place of ultimate terror - as he will for do all his children who didn't show love for him.

There you go CC... now try again with something that actually resembles what is actually said.

this is basically the picture you just painted for everyone ....


...

(May 5, 2011 at 8:18 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: Christians are constantly equating their "relationship to god" to a relationship between a father and his child. Ok, lets play that out for a moment. I will keep the Xtian views as basic (and scriptual) as possible.

Xtian view: God created you. As a child he protects you. He loves you dearly.
My wife and I created a son. He's turning 3 soon. I love him more than life itself.

I don't know dude, this seems to be a little off from what scripture states. Granted you can't really use what Xians say because most Xians really don't know much past the Gospel message and what they see in movies.

The bible never claims that were children of God, not until second birth anyways (born again) or rather believing in God's promises. The Old Testament demonstrates this concept very well. Cain was the first born, who attempted to present an offering to God on his own terms. It was denied because the works of the flesh are just that "works". The promise was seen through Abel, the second birth, who basically presented God an offering in accordance with His will. Demonstrating that there is life in the second birth or to put it in light of the New Testament scripture being born again, trusting in the Lord for one's salvation. You can see the same example in the births of Ishmael & Isaac and Esau & Jacob, the promise does not come through those born in the flesh, the first birth, but comes through those who trust in the Lord, the second birth. Anyways were not born children of God.

Late.

(May 5, 2011 at 8:48 pm)coffeeveritas Wrote: Excellently put! I love the running narrative. It's so funny, that's almost exactly what Rob Bell put on the back of his new book. You're right though, the typical Christian idea of hell just kind of hits you the wrong way logically. I think, "I'm supposed to be the messed up one, but even I wouldn't set someone on fire for disagreeing with me."

The more accurate concept of Hell can be found in both the Old & New Testaments, but just look at what the NT actually states about Hell. First it's a place of Darkness void of God's presences and Light, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment"

Second Hell is a place of regret and sorrow void of God's presence and Joy, "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out."

Lastly Hell was created for Satan and his angels. They would most likely not even be affected by what we would know as fire. The flames of Hell are also a place void of God's presence and the Water of Life. Jesus claims to be the Living Water, that if you drink of it you'd never thirst again.

I'm not suggesting Hell isn't a place of torment, it is, but it's mainly tormenting because it's complete separation from God. What ultimate price did Christ pay on the cross for our sin? Total separation from the God the Father, "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Hell: It's not being lit up like a human torch, it's being all alone within yourself.

(May 6, 2011 at 6:12 pm)Nimzo Wrote:

(May 6, 2011 at 1:27 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: ... exactly how? By quoting the bible.

Quoting generally involves presenting what your source says.

Still waiting for CC to start "quoting the Bible".

Quote:"If you are not for me, then you are against me"

Neutrality is a no vote. You can't abstain.

Bit childish ain't it? Coming from a god an'all.

So there is no middle ground. There is no third option? No 'I want nothing to do with it' stance? Well thankfully there is....atheism/secularism.

(May 6, 2011 at 6:54 pm)Napoleon666 Wrote: Like i said moral beliefs are subjective to the individual, but collectively there are human impulses which we all share.

And where do these impulses come from, dare I ask?

Quote:My point stands, we don't need a god to do this. Prove otherwise.

haha Not my job. I don't have to prove a thing to you.

(May 7, 2011 at 6:31 am)Nimzo Wrote:

(May 6, 2011 at 6:12 pm)Nimzo Wrote:

(May 6, 2011 at 1:27 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: ... exactly how? By quoting the bible.

Quoting generally involves presenting what your source says.

Still waiting for CC to start "quoting the Bible".

That said, the Biblical "sources" for Hell tend to be rather vague, vague enough to lead to interpretations as varied as Dante's Inferno and The Twilight Zone episode "A Nice Place to Visit." Both are seen by their interpreters as equally spiritually sound, which says a lot about how vague it actually is.

(May 7, 2011 at 10:38 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: That said, the Biblical "sources" for Hell tend to be rather vague, vague enough to lead to interpretations as varied as Dante's Inferno and The Twilight Zone episode "A Nice Place to Visit." Both are seen by their interpreters as equally spiritually sound, which says a lot about how vague it actually is.

The existence of different interpretations says nothing about the vagueness of the language used; what it says is that some interpreters knowledge of the language used is incomplete or innaccurate. It is exactly the same with anything where there are differences of interpretation, whether it is the interpretation of text, or the interpretation of scientific evidence. Does the existence of different interpretations of the evidence of the age of the earth mean that the evidence is vague or insufficient to come to an accurate conclusion? Not in any way, but it says a whole lot about the scientific knowledge of Young-Earthers.

(May 7, 2011 at 6:05 am)Hunted By A Freak Wrote:

(May 5, 2011 at 8:48 pm)coffeeveritas Wrote: Excellently put! I love the running narrative. It's so funny, that's almost exactly what Rob Bell put on the back of his new book. You're right though, the typical Christian idea of hell just kind of hits you the wrong way logically. I think, "I'm supposed to be the messed up one, but even I wouldn't set someone on fire for disagreeing with me."

The more accurate concept of Hell can be found in both the Old & New Testaments, but just look at what the NT actually states about Hell. First it's a place of Darkness void of God's presences and Light, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment"

Second Hell is a place of regret and sorrow void of God's presence and Joy, "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out."

Lastly Hell was created for Satan and his angels. They would most likely not even be affected by what we would know as fire. The flames of Hell are also a place void of God's presence and the Water of Life. Jesus claims to be the Living Water, that if you drink of it you'd never thirst again.

I'm not suggesting Hell isn't a place of torment, it is, but it's mainly tormenting because it's complete separation from God. What ultimate price did Christ pay on the cross for our sin? Total separation from the God the Father, "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

Hell: It's not being lit up like a human torch, it's being all alone within yourself.

Oh, absolutely, I'm all in favor of a more biblical view of hell. I was saying that the typical idea of hell put forth in the popular sphere is more in line with what Cinjin said, and I can definitely see why that would hit people the wrong way. I can understand being off-put by it, since it's not really what the Bible says anyway. I like what C.S. said about heaven and hell in his books, and Rob Bell did a pretty good job painting a more accurate picture of heaven and hell in his new book.

(May 7, 2011 at 9:49 am)Watson Wrote:

(May 6, 2011 at 6:54 pm)Napoleon666 Wrote: Like i said moral beliefs are subjective to the individual, but collectively there are human impulses which we all share.

And where do these impulses come from, dare I ask?

Go ask a scientist, i'm sure they could answer you. I know it certainly doesn't have influence from any 'god'.