(May 7, 2011 at 2:48 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(May 6, 2011 at 6:40 pm)Napoleon666 Wrote: We do not need a bible to tell us this. THAT is my point.

Subjective morals are changeable and therefore weak. An absolute moral standard is fixed and therefore strong. You can't hope for justice from humans with a flawed moral perspective. Only God, who can know enough to make them, can make absolute morally just decisions.... which is why you need God in the equation. Otherwise there is no justice in your world.

(May 6, 2011 at 9:21 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: And yet, here's the problem: Why would God allow a place of eternal torment to exist?

Because he is just. If he wasn't just, then there would be no need for consequences.

Let me get this straight:
>God made morals
>God made consequences because he is just
>Justice = moral rightness

Doesn't this mean that God could have made consequences unnecessary when he invented morals?

(May 7, 2011 at 2:48 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(May 6, 2011 at 9:21 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: And yet, here's the problem: Why would God allow a place of eternal torment to exist?

Because he is just. If he wasn't just, then there would be no need for consequences.

And there couldn't be a place of finite torment, like purgatory? After all, sin, no matter how great the sinner is, can never get infinite. And, since one aspect of justice is letting the punishment fit the crime, I can hardly see how infinite punishment can be done for finite sin. And for that matter, if memory serves, if, as many Christians say, you can avoid going to Hell by converting to Christianity, that would mean that if somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer ended up converting, he'd escape justice for cannibalising 17 boys, and that, meanwhile, somebody like John Lennon, who spent his life doing little more than playing music and telling people to imagine a world where people lived in peace, deserves to suffer more than Jeffrey Dahmer, as he died without converting. WHERE IS THE JUSTICE?

(May 7, 2011 at 3:45 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: This exactly proves the point above. Without a concept of purpose your life is sad and inhibited.

Atheists have a concept of purpose. We can make our own. We can be more than we are, religion is not required. Life is only sad if you need a belief in god in order to see any purpose.
Atheists are not sad, they are not without purpose, they are free.

(May 7, 2011 at 4:11 pm)tesseract7d Wrote: Let me get this straight:
>God made morals

Wrong

(May 7, 2011 at 4:13 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: WHERE IS THE JUSTICE?

I'm assuming Rev that you have the ability to judge *wakes up from shared delusion*

(May 7, 2011 at 4:15 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: Atheists have a concept of purpose. We can make our own. We can be more than we are, religion is not required. Life is only sad if you need a belief in god in order to see any purpose.
Atheists are not sad, they are not without purpose, they are free.

You just replaced God with an unnamed purpose of your own invention presumably. IOW you are doing something similar to achieve the same thing/ you agree that purpose is necessary. Now... any purpose less than God (perfection) has to be inferior.

(May 7, 2011 at 4:30 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You just replaced God with an unnamed purpose of your own invention presumably. IOW you are doing something similar to achieve the same thing/ you agree that purpose is necessary. Now... any purpose less than God (perfection) has to be inferior.

My "unnamed purpose" is a self made purpose. We can decide our own purpose and future.
Whether you consider a purpose that is not based on an imaginary friend inferior or not, factual it is not.
I could say having a purpose without a Santa is inferior. Does this make it true? If I believed this to be true, does that make me right? No.

Quote: Now... any purpose less than Santa (perfection) has to be inferior.

This argument can be applied to anything.

(May 7, 2011 at 2:48 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(May 7, 2011 at 2:32 am)Cinjin Cain Wrote: this is basically the picture you just painted for everyone ....

No CC that's the picture of your fabricated understanding.

No matter how much you change the sentences around, or how often you argue context and doctrine.
No matter how much you redefine justice or lesson the degrees of hell ...
The fact is, you believe in it. Your god made us. Your god made hell. We don't believe in your God ... we're all going to burn in his hell.

Stand up and be counted with your brothers in christ Frodo .... You believe that I'm going to hell.

TRUE?

Your god sucks and your religion is lunacy.

(May 7, 2011 at 4:30 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(May 7, 2011 at 4:11 pm)tesseract7d Wrote: Let me get this straight:
>God made morals

Wrong

Okay, I went back and saw that I read your post wrong. I saw "Only God, who can know enough to make them" as insinuating that God created morals. My bad.

(May 7, 2011 at 4:37 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: factual it is not.

Factual it is. I believe. Fact.

(May 7, 2011 at 4:37 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: I could say having a purpose without a Santa is inferior.

That simply makes you author of absurd statements Ace.

(May 7, 2011 at 4:54 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: The fact is, you believe in it. Your god made us. Your god made hell. We don't believe in your God ... we're all going to burn in his hell.

This is true.

But you "go to hell" because you choose it. God didn't choose it for you.

If you could prepare a healthy life for your children... and they rejected it and chose death instead, because they think you're a jerk... does that make you a bad parent?

Quote:Factual it is. I believe. Fact.

How can that be if god's existence is itself not factual?
You believe it to be true, this doesn't make it true.

Quote:That simply makes you author of absurd statements Ace.

You think you're not? God to me, is an absurd idea.
One imaginary friend is no different from another.

If god really doesn't exist, would you see yourself as without purpose and/or meaning?

Quote:But you "go to hell" because you choose it. God didn't choose it for you.

I never chose to go to hell. I just lack belief in the whole thing. Still think lack of belief is done by choice?

(May 7, 2011 at 5:51 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: But you "go to hell" because you choose it. God didn't choose it for you.

If you could prepare a healthy life for your children... and they rejected it and chose death instead, because they think you're a jerk... does that make you a bad parent?

Im sure Sadam Hussein felt the same way about his torture/rape chambers. They chose to break the law, and they threw themselves into that torture chamber. They rejected his laws and chose death instead, because they thought he was a jerk. Does that make hussein a bad man?