(May 7, 2011 at 5:51 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: But you "go to hell" because you choose it. God didn't choose it for you.

If you could prepare a healthy life for your children... and they rejected it and chose death instead, because they think you're a jerk... does that make you a bad parent?

Yes. It does. Odds are, if you've given them enough of a reason to make them think you're a jerk that they choose death over being with you, you are a bad parent. And if said parents are able to do everything to keep you from wanting to reject it and them and fail to do so, they're even worse.

(May 7, 2011 at 5:58 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: You believe it to be true, this doesn't make it true.

There is nothing else that can make it true Ace, only belief.

(May 7, 2011 at 5:58 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

Quote:That simply makes you author of absurd statements Ace.

You think you're not? God to me, is an absurd idea.
One imaginary friend is no different from another.

Stated from ignorance. Gladly not many people use this methodology or we'd all be in the shit.

(May 7, 2011 at 5:58 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: If god really doesn't exist, would you see yourself as without purpose and/or meaning?

No. Because my purpose is not rooted in existence or non existence. It's rooted in solid reasoning.

You may be satisfied in reasoning a metaphysical subject should be provable by physics, but no sane logical person would.

(May 7, 2011 at 5:58 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: I never chose to go to hell. I just lack belief in the whole thing. Still think lack of belief is done by choice?

Yes. You choose to ignore it. Like a person would choose to ignore a rope when drowning. Oh dear look you drowned... must've been my fault for not making you grab the rope????

(May 7, 2011 at 6:08 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Im sure Sadam Hussein felt the same way about his torture/rape chambers. They chose to break the law, and they threw themselves into that torture chamber. They rejected his laws and chose death instead, because they thought he was a jerk. Does that make hussein a bad man?

Well if I chose to break Sadam's laws knowing full well the maniac would punish me... should I blame him that I'm punished or bear the responsibility for my actions?

God is the judge of right and wrong... if you choose wrong then why do you expect to be treated otherwise by justice????

(May 7, 2011 at 6:50 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(May 7, 2011 at 5:51 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: does that make you a bad parent?

Yes. It does. Odds are, if you've given them enough of a reason to make them think you're a jerk that they choose death over being with you, you are a bad parent. And if said parents are able to do everything to keep you from wanting to reject it and them and fail to do so, they're even worse.

You gave them no reason to think that you were a jerk, your behavior was impeccable. So you're saying you are directly responsible for the decisions of another person???

Quote:There is nothing else that can make it true Ace, only belief.

Having belief doesn't make it true. Beliefs are just beliefs.

Quote:Stated from ignorance. Gladly not many people use this methodology or we'd all be in the shit.

No, stated from understanding.

Quote:You may be satisfied in reasoning a metaphysical subject should be provable by physics,

I expect large claims to be backed up with something, if that cannot be done then I'll reject the claim.

Quote:Yes. You choose to ignore it.

No, I looked into the 'claim' and due to lack of evidence, I with-held judgement. I lack belief in it because I am unconvinced. Not too hard to understand, Frodo.

(May 7, 2011 at 7:43 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: Having belief doesn't make it true. Beliefs are just beliefs.

Really Ace? So your intellectual understanding of the world around you is just belief and not true? Interesting

(May 7, 2011 at 7:43 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

Quote:Stated from ignorance[...]

No, stated from understanding.

Ace. You freely admit to not wanting to know. GTFO claiming that you understand anything about it.

(May 7, 2011 at 7:43 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

Quote:You may be satisfied in reasoning a metaphysical subject should be provable by physics,

I expect large claims to be backed up with something, if that cannot be done then I'll reject the claim.

There is no larger claim to be stating, as you are doing now Ace, that science wants to state ANYTHING about the metaphysical. You're rejecting the claim with absurdity.

(May 7, 2011 at 7:43 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

Quote:Yes. You choose to ignore it.

No, I looked into the 'claim' and due to lack of evidence, I with-held judgement. I lack belief in it because I am unconvinced. Not too hard to understand, Frodo.

I don't find it hard to understand, no. I've identified your reasoning above.

Quote:Really Ace? So your intellectual understanding of the world around you is just belief and not true? Interesting

Nope, my understanding comes from observation, data and evidence. Religion offers no such things.
Belief in a god won't make it true. Just as belief in Santa won't make it true.

Quote:Ace. You freely admit to not wanting to know. GTFO claiming that you understand anything about it.

I do understand. Thing is, I've always been an atheist, the more I learnt about religion, the stronger my stance against it became. There is nothing you could teach me that would make any difference. I already know what I need to know.

Quote:You're rejecting the claim with absurdity.

No, I'm rejecting it with reason. I do not start with the assumption that it exists, it doesn't work that way. I need reason and evidence, if there be neither, then it will be dismissed.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No exceptions, no special treatments.

fr0d0 Wrote:Well if I chose to break Sadam's laws knowing full well the maniac would punish me... should I blame him that I'm punished or bear the responsibility for my actions?

God is the judge of right and wrong... if you choose wrong then why do you expect to be treated otherwise by justice????

Fine... you better hope that Allah is fictional, because if he is real you will be in that lake of fire right next to me.

(May 7, 2011 at 7:34 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(May 7, 2011 at 6:50 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(May 7, 2011 at 5:51 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: does that make you a bad parent?

Yes. It does. Odds are, if you've given them enough of a reason to make them think you're a jerk that they choose death over being with you, you are a bad parent. And if said parents are able to do everything to keep you from wanting to reject it and them and fail to do so, they're even worse.

You gave them no reason to think that you were a jerk, your behavior was impeccable. So you're saying you are directly responsible for the decisions of another person???

Never underestimate people's myopia. Especially parents.

Haven't read through the entire thread,only enough to decide to leave Frodo on ignore. Apologies if my question has been covered:


FREE WILL: If I say to you "do as I say or I will hurt you" is that not coercion, the antithesis of free will?

In law contracts signed under duress are void. Actions made under duress have no moral value for the performer and are not culpable at law.

A common theist attitude has always bemused me: Obeying what they see as the will of god from fear of hell or for the reward of heaven.Such motives seem morally bankrupt to me,albeit very human---just like YHWH in fact. Not surprising, as he was invented by humans.

(May 7, 2011 at 8:08 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: Nope, my understanding comes from observation, data and evidence. Religion offers no such things.
Belief in a god won't make it true. Just as belief in Santa won't make it true.

You're covering old ground Ace. Religion says NOTHING ABOUT such things.

Back to the point... you disbelieve what you reason to be true.

(May 7, 2011 at 8:08 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

Quote:Ace. You freely admit to not wanting to know. GTFO claiming that you understand anything about it.

I do understand. Thing is, I've always been an atheist, the more I learnt about religion, the stronger my stance against it became. There is nothing you could teach me that would make any difference. I already know what I need to know.

Funny, I'm open to any information you might bring to the table. But then I'm not professing deliberate ignorance.

If you wanted to progress beyond your naive misunderstanding don't you think that might be commendable?

(May 7, 2011 at 8:08 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

Quote:You're rejecting the claim with absurdity.

No, I'm rejecting it with reason. I do not start with the assumption that it exists, it doesn't work that way. I need reason and evidence, if there be neither, then it will be dismissed.

Evidence #1: Nobody is asking you to assume anything exists.

Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

(May 7, 2011 at 8:08 pm)Ace Otana Wrote: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No exceptions, no special treatments.

Except the ones you make

(May 7, 2011 at 8:14 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Fine... you better hope that Allah is fictional, because if he is real you will be in that lake of fire right next to me.

You believe that crap! Holy Cow man!

(May 7, 2011 at 8:17 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: Never underestimate people's myopia. Especially parents.

Never underestimate God (...he's not flawed )

Quote:Never underestimate God

Never overestimate that which does not exist.