Also a friendly reminder that even us allies did some horrific shit in WW2

(August 7, 2016 at 7:40 am)Jello Wrote:

(August 7, 2016 at 7:38 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: You should be concerned if the chancellor of Germany and members of her cabinet were to make official annual pilgrimages to a shrine housing the remains of hermann goering, Wilhelm keitel, and Heinrich himmler, and Germany just named a major warship Bismarck.

Visiting a shrine to war criminals and naming a ship something from a war are two very different things, so don't give me that crap. And nice one for the germans, hopefully it won't sink like the last one 

The second thing is a choice made by those who also chose to do the first, at the same time as heightened controversy surrounding the first.  So don't give me the crap about the second not being additional evidence for the legitimacy of the concerns raised by the first, or was not likely done specifically to reinforce the domestic political impact of the first.

War is hell but don't sit there and fucking pretend that cruelty is a despot issue only, it is still ultimately a human behavior, and the west has not been perfect by any stretch. The west has had a long history of dominion. From the church and the dark ages, to Britain and India and the Americas, slavery and genocide of Native Americans and Japanese internment camps.

FYI, I've been to a museum in Japan depicting their war history, especially conflicts with China, and they responded with the same cruelty in response to Japan, which today, Trump himself has suggested we respond to the same level of brutality as Saddam. Humans can be cruel on all sides. Evolution produces both cruelty and compassion which is why I am not going to devalue the lives lost in those bombs nor the survivors whom lead to my x's family. It happened and it sucked but it is nothing the world should ever repeat.

(August 7, 2016 at 7:55 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(August 7, 2016 at 7:40 am)Jello Wrote: Visiting a shrine to war criminals and naming a ship something from a war are two very different things, so don't give me that crap. And nice one for the germans, hopefully it won't sink like the last one 

The second thing is a choice made by those who also chose to do the first, at the same time as heightened controversy surrounding the first.  So don't give me the crap about the second not being additional evidence for the legitimacy of the concerns raised by the first, or was not likely done specifically to reinforce the domestic political impact of the first.

Bismark is as loose an association to the nazis as you can get. It's the name of a way pre-nazi dude, and the ship was built way before they came to power, at least as far as i remember.

(August 7, 2016 at 7:46 am)Jello Wrote: Don't forget all the firebombing, either. Sure, japan may have started that shit, but the people suffered for their rulers decisions heavily.

Thank you, it sucks that humans fight and have wars, but I never like it when we blame entire populations for what their bad governments do knowing ultimately our species ability to be cruel or compassionate is still ultimately evolutionary. Even in Europe we carpet bombed and killed lots of civilians in our battle against Hitler. It still doesn't make it right, it is just that it sucks for humanity that it ever gets to that point.

(August 7, 2016 at 7:38 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: You should be concerned if Germany revised all her secondary school textbooks to say the holocaust never happened, Germany did not invade other countries during WWII but merely "entered" those other countries out of justifiable self defense,  and yes, Germany regrets innocent foreigners suffered, but Germany committed no culpable war crimes and is morally no worse than any other country involved in that war.

Furthermore, the chancellor and members of her cabinet took up making official annual pilgrimages to a shrine housing the remains of hermann goering, Wilhelm keitel, and Heinrich himmler,

and Germany just named a major warship Bismarck, after breaking with long practice of not reusing names of major warships from WWII.

One of those things is not like the others. Or did I miss that Bismarck is a particularly controversial historic figure compared to the average?

(August 7, 2016 at 8:04 am)Jello Wrote:

(August 7, 2016 at 7:55 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: The second thing is a choice made by those who also chose to do the first, at the same time as heightened controversy surrounding the first.  So don't give me the crap about the second not being additional evidence for the legitimacy of the concerns raised by the first, or was not likely done specifically to reinforce the domestic political impact of the first.

Bismark is as loose an association to the nazis as you can get. It's the name of a way pre-nazi dude, and the ship was built way before they came to power, at least as far as i remember.

Granted.  But in this hypothetical scenario reviving the name of a signal Nazi warship at the exact time of widespread regional concern over what is perceived to be reviving militarism in Germany could hardly be seen by Germany's neighbors as anything other than another action aimed at facilitating the reviving of militarism through rehabilitation of the symbols, icons, and memory of militarism.

(August 7, 2016 at 8:08 am)Alex K Wrote:

(August 7, 2016 at 7:38 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: You should be concerned if Germany revised all her secondary school textbooks to say the holocaust never happened, Germany did not invade other countries during WWII but merely "entered" those other countries out of justifiable self defense,  and yes, Germany regrets innocent foreigners suffered, but Germany committed no culpable war crimes and is morally no worse than any other country involved in that war.

Furthermore, the chancellor and members of her cabinet took up making official annual pilgrimages to a shrine housing the remains of hermann goering, Wilhelm keitel, and Heinrich himmler,

and Germany just named a major warship Bismarck, after breaking with long practice of not reusing names of major warships from WWII.

One of those things is not like the others. Or did I miss that Bismarck is a particularly controversial historic figure compared to the average?

Not the chancellor Bismarck.   The battleship Bismarck. If Nazi regime didn't name a battleship Bismarck, it would likely be uncontroversial for Germany to name a warship after the chancellor now. But the Nazis did and the battleship Bismarck is identified almost as an icon of the militarism and naval menace that defined Germany in popular perception of WWII. So for Germany to name a modern warship Bismarck would assuredly be controversial.

If in the context of brewing protests and controversies about other actions Germany took and is seen to be aimed at reviving a militaristic past, germany were then to add to the controversy and name a new warship Bismarck, it would most certainly be seen as a further confirmation of the fears raised by those other actions.

I do blame Japan's rulers and propaganda for scaring the shit out of their population, much so to the point when we were close to the end of the war many Japanese were sold the idea we'd rape and enslave their population to the point many would commit suicide. The following is WW2 footage showing one Japanese woman jumping of a cliff to avoid capture. Saipan had over 8,000 civilians jump to their deaths because of the propaganda the Empire had sold them. Many women would jump off the cliff with their babies. They were as much victims as those at Pearl Harbor. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI0HRz0xLnc


 But that still did not make it right on our part to put George Takei and his family in a prison camp. Just because we didn't murder them didn't make it moral, we still stole their property and put them in an a unclean unpleasant prison camp regardless of the rights that the Constitution was supposed to afford them.

I've lost control of this thread, which started off as a discussion of statistical probabilities with respect to current polling of Donald Trump's chances of winning the White House, which I would estimate as being less than 5%.