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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:02 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 5:03 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 17, 2016 at 4:54 pm)Irrational Wrote: (August 17, 2016 at 4:52 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Can you?
Yes, I can. Well, I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. You have free will because you say you have free will. : shrugs :
(August 17, 2016 at 4:58 pm)Gemini Wrote: I honestly think it's about getting over the specious metaphysics that defined a freely made decision as ex nihilo in the first place. You might call it dog meat, I call the incompatibilist libertarian position magical unicorn meat. It was meaningless to begin with. I'm happy to understand free will as an executive function of the brain, however causally deterministic it is. It's "free" in the sense that matters to persons, which is phenomenological. I'm not sure what that means. It's phenomenologically free? Could you elaborate or rephrase?
(am I misunderstanding?)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:05 pm
(August 17, 2016 at 5:02 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (August 17, 2016 at 4:54 pm)Irrational Wrote: Yes, I can. Well, I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. Yes, take my word for it. I know me better than you do.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:06 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 5:07 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
People often think they know themselves very well. I'm not sure what relevance it has here, in this conversation, though.....which is not about knowing yourself, but understanding whatever process makes decisions.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:11 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 5:12 pm by Gemini.)
(August 17, 2016 at 5:02 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm not sure what that means. It's phenomenologically free? Could you elaborate or rephrase?
(am I misunderstanding?)
The phenomenology of a decision is the conscious experience of what it's like to make a decision. I think that's what our concept of "free" is really rooted in--our experience of making decisions free from duress. Not some theistic sophistry that maintains our capability for creating ex nihilo events.
A Gemma is forever.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:13 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 5:19 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Do you make decisions free of duress, even in your experience? Are there no considerations in your decision making process that all but ensure a particular decision-making outcome? Obviously we can't be talking about every decision (surely you could be tortured into "deciding" anything)...and one might wonder why human decisionmaking is predictable enough to be a multi-billion dollar business (advertising) if it were so robust and resistant to duress. I have serious reservations here that we're not actually discussing phenomenology, but instead...a woeful dearth of introspection regarding a particular phenomena.
If you're offered a kale smoothie, a bowl of strawberries...and a dog turd. Which would you decide to eat, and why?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:20 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 5:21 pm by Gemini.)
(August 17, 2016 at 5:13 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Do you make decisions free of duress, even in your experience? Are there no considerations in your decision making process that all but ensure a particular decision-making outcome?
Absolutely there are considerations that ensure a particular outcome in my decision-making. But when the considerations are facts about my own psychology, I don't experience them as duress. Yes, my decisions were causally determined, but I'm happy to interpret these decisions as mine. It was my own past experiences, for instance, that led me to endorse my husband's decision to listen to metal on our date today. I made that decision free from duress, but not free from the considerations of a lifetime of experience in a causally deterministic physical regime. I care about the former, and not about the latter. And that's the way it should be, sans theistic sophistry.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:21 pm
(August 17, 2016 at 9:56 am)Tiberius Wrote: Most people seem to get confused over free will because it certainly seems that we have it (we are actively thinking about decisions before making them).
The problem happens when you start to really question that "active thinking". Sure, you can say you went to an ice cream store and thought about whether to have chocolate or vanilla, and decided on chocolate, but... did you actually decide? There's no actual way to tell; we can't rewind time and observe you choosing vanilla instead. From an external perspective, all you did was go into the store and get chocolate.
It gets even more confusing when you think about the nature of free will vs the physical nature of the brain. The brain is a bunch of neurons firing in reaction to various stimuli. What if your brain is the one actually making the decision (predetermined by the stimuli) and your "thought process" in which you actively come to a decision is just an illusion, a byproduct of the brain.
Occams razor suggests that the illusion of free will is more likely than actual free will.
I think Occams razor suggests the opposite. When adding in the uncountable amount of variables that may or may not impact the physical nature of the brain, it's function and myriads of stimuli (past and present) you are adding more assumptions, making the determination of free will unbelievably complex.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:26 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 5:27 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 17, 2016 at 5:20 pm)Gemini Wrote: Absolutely there are considerations that ensure a particular outcome in my decision-making. But when the considerations are facts about my own psychology, I don't experience them as duress. That sounds like a semantic switch rather than a qualitative objection. Do you -not- experience the duress of present financial status when deciding which car to buy?
Quote:Yes, my decisions were causally determined, but I'm happy to interpret these decisions as mine.
-and I'm happy to give them to you as yours, I'm wondering about the sense in which they are free...not their ownership.
Quote:It was my own past experiences, for instance, that led me to endorse my husband's decision to listen to metal on our date today. I made that decision free from duress,
You didn't really like the guy and want to participate in what he likes, you didn't feel compelled to share in your spouses experience? That's not duress, in context? Do you like metal?
Quote:but not free from the considerations of a lifetime of experience in a causally deterministic physical regime. I care about the former, and not about the latter. And that's the way it should be, sans theistic sophistry.
So, again..its dog...but you prefer to call it taco meat. It doesn't sound, to me, like duress means anything in particular. It's just a skyhook.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:35 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 5:36 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Here's one for both of you (gem, irrational)
What you're describing -seems- to be an attept to claim your will for yourself. To say that regardless of what process makes it all work, or how you came to posess this or that..if it;s yours, it's "free". Lacking duress, or uncoerced. Laying aside that I have serious doubts about both of these descriptions of your respective decisionmaking experiences....
Why not just call that your will, or my will, or...just will? What's free doing there?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:37 pm
(August 17, 2016 at 5:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (August 17, 2016 at 5:20 pm)Gemini Wrote: Absolutely there are considerations that ensure a particular outcome in my decision-making. But when the considerations are facts about my own psychology, I don't experience them as duress. That sounds like a semantic switch rather than a qualitative objection. Do you -not- experience the duress of present financial status when deciding which car to buy?
Quote:Yes, my decisions were causally determined, but I'm happy to interpret these decisions as mine.
-and I'm happy to give them to you as yours, I'm wondering about the sense in which they are free...not their ownership.
Quote:It was my own past experiences, for instance, that led me to endorse my husband's decision to listen to metal on our date today. I made that decision free from duress,
You didn't really like the guy and want to participate in what he likes, you didn't feel compelled to share in your spouses experience? That's not duress, in context? Do you like metal?
Quote:but not free from the considerations of a lifetime of experience in a causally deterministic physical regime. I care about the former, and not about the latter. And that's the way it should be, sans theistic sophistry.
So, again..its dog...but you prefer to call it taco meat. It doesn't sound, to me, like duress means anything in particular. It's just a skyhook.
Oh come on. Sky hook? Accuse me of redefining terms to suit my biases if you like--you might be right--but don't accuse me of skyhook. In even the must unflattering interpretation, it's crane "redefined" as skyhook.
Now when it comes to duress, I listened to music that I would not choose to listen to if I was alone. But I given the social predispositions of primates, and I don't think I can be blamed for agreeing to listen to some metal band with "murder" in the name just because I wanted to please my partner.There is reason for aesthetic appreciation, and more importantly, value within the causal regime in which I operate.
A Gemma is forever.
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