(August 16, 2016 at 12:24 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: France is weird man. I don't think that countries or cities should have dress codes. That's one of my problems with religion, if it has a dress code, it has too much control over your life.

Very true.

(September 4, 2016 at 12:17 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(August 25, 2016 at 9:21 pm)Tres Leches Wrote: When in Rome, do as the Romans. If you want to enjoy a public beach with most everyone around you wearing swimsuits and scanty clothing in the sunshine and surf (don't forget your sunscreen!) why not do the same? Muslim men do but their women can't. It's a double standard purely based on an archaic religion.

Also, am I being an immodest and tempting infidel by wearing a beach swimsuit instead of covering myself from head to toe? I don't think so, but Muslims who believe in covering their women up say different.

I don't see that the state paternalistically instructing a woman on how they may and may not dress at the beach -- or anywhere else -- is one whit better than her imam paternalistically telling her how she may or may not dress.

In both cases the message is, you are a woman, you need a male-dominated structure telling you how to dress.

Hey Thump, I agree with you on most everything you post here but on this one I disagree.

If Muslim women who "want" to wear head to toe swimsuits while their men are free to wear what they want only do this because they 100% came up with the idea on their own and they aren't being forced or indoctrinated into covering up - then have at it! But that's simply not the case here.
When a societal institution like government speaks out for a subjugated group of people, it's a good thing.

Either way, the French will decide for themselves through their government and courts what's appropriate in the case of Islamic swimwear.

Once again, your opinion on forcing them to undress in public, if you please. It doesn't matter if it was originally forced on them or if they were coerced into wearing that stuff. What's the difference between forcing them into it or out of it - in public? Do you think they will celebrate your arrival and cheer you as their liberator?

(September 4, 2016 at 4:06 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote:

(August 25, 2016 at 6:55 pm)abaris Wrote: It's despicable in both directions. Forcing someone into wearing something they don't want to wear. And forcing them to undress. As it happened at Nice these days. That's not what a liberal or secular society is about. Again, in both directions.

Although I don't support any sort of government enforced dress code, I do wonder how many women really would be dressing in a burkini on a hot day on a beach without pressure from husband/family/community. 9/10 the poor woman's husband is just in swim trunks enjoying a hot day like a normal person. The burkini is another symbol of extreme Islamic sexism.

We wear clothing because of community/cultural norms and mores.

(September 4, 2016 at 4:25 pm)Tres Leches Wrote:

(September 4, 2016 at 12:17 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I don't see that the state paternalistically instructing a woman on how they may and may not dress at the beach -- or anywhere else -- is one whit better than her imam paternalistically telling her how she may or may not dress.

In both cases the message is, you are a woman, you need a male-dominated structure telling you how to dress.

Hey Thump, I agree with you on most everything you post here but on this one I disagree.

If Muslim women who "want" to wear head to toe swimsuits while their men are free to wear what they want only do this because they 100% came up with the idea on their own and they aren't being forced or indoctrinated into covering up - then have at it! But that's simply not the case here.
When a societal institution like government speaks out for a subjugated group of people, it's a good thing.

Either way, the French will decide for themselves through their government and courts what's appropriate in the case of Islamic swimwear.

Disagreement's fine. I get the point about the woman's choice being often an artifact of cultural programming, but often it isn't. And in either case, unless she's disturbing the peace or doing harm to others directly, it's not the purview of the government.

"We don't like you being told how to dress, so we're going to tell you how to dress" is not, imo, a sound basis for any legislation.

And -- a French court has already struck down the law.

(September 4, 2016 at 4:28 pm)abaris Wrote: Once again, your opinion on forcing them to undress in public, if you please. It doesn't matter if it was originally forced on them or if they were coerced into wearing that stuff. What's the difference between forcing them into it or out of it - in public? Do you think they will celebrate your arrival and cheer you as their liberator?

Is this a question for me? I'll answer either way.
The one instance I've seen of cops on a French beach making a woman take off her long sleeved shirt was a bit over the top. It doesn't change my opinion, though. It hasn't convinced me to change my opinion. That one scene pales in comparison to the millions of Muslim women who are forced under threat of punishment to cover their bodies in public simply because they are female. So no, my opinion hasn't changed here.

(September 4, 2016 at 4:33 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: And -- a French court has already struck down the law.

Which is crucial, since, as opposed to populous politicians, they know the constitution.

(September 4, 2016 at 4:28 pm)Mermaid Wrote:

(September 4, 2016 at 4:06 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Although I don't support any sort of government enforced dress code, I do wonder how many women really would be dressing in a burkini on a hot day on a beach without pressure from husband/family/community. 9/10 the poor woman's husband is just in swim trunks enjoying a hot day like a normal person. The burkini is another symbol of extreme Islamic sexism.

We wear clothing because of community/cultural norms and mores.

True enough, however I wonder how many women outside of Orthodox religious families (regardless of Islam, Christianity, or Judaism) risk physical violence or threats of hell for not conforming to those dress standards. I might wear a north face shirt because all my friends do, but nobody is going to hit me or call me a whore if I choose to dress differently.

(September 4, 2016 at 4:33 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: And -- a French court has already struck down the law.

The court suspended the ban in one French town. The bans are still there in the 30 or so other towns that have it. Although I'm sure the issue is still being adjudicated and the suspension will be seen as a test case for the other towns' bans.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a...urt-ruling