(September 15, 2016 at 5:29 am)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 5:26 am)Arkilogue Wrote: What bond is there when a machine is carrying the child?

Nor should there be any. Personally, I would've prefered growing up in a society where the family model was non-existent. Don't just stop at births, remove the "parents" altogether. And that's regardless of how happy I would've been otherwise.

Holy shit man, just part of the hive eh?

Do you know what extended family indigenous villagers have? Unbroken social security from birth to death and no one is left out in the cold. The very old and the very young spend lots of time together as the book ends of life.

Family is the building block of civilization. Take that away and you will be regulated to being a battery that get's thrown away when you stop producing current. You think todays world is ruthless? You have no idea what you're asking for.

(September 15, 2016 at 5:41 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 5:29 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: Nor should there be any. Personally, I would've prefered growing up in a society where the family model was non-existent. Don't just stop at births, remove the "parents" altogether. And that's regardless of how happy I would've been otherwise.

Holy shit man, just part of the hive eh?

Do you know what extended family indigenous villagers have? Unbroken social security from birth to death and no one is left out in the cold. The very old and the very young spend lots of time together as the book ends of life.

Family is the building block of civilization. Take that away and you will be regulated to being a battery that get's thrown away when you stop producing current.  You think todays world is ruthless? You have no idea what you're asking for.

It seems to me like what I'm not asking for is to get strawmanned.

This whole idea that kids need their biological parents, or just two guardians, or any specific guardians especially linked to them is simply an artifact of evolution, it's not necessarily the best way to bring up an intelligent human being in tomorrow's world.

Just because your imagination fails to conceptualize a society where children are taken care of in a much more diverse environment than a simple household doesn't mean it's necessarily bad.

(September 15, 2016 at 5:33 am)Alex K Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 5:26 am)Arkilogue Wrote: What bond is there when a machine is carrying the child?

An emotional bond, of course. And, if you're the biological mother/father, a genetic one.

I suppose the machine will simulate the heart beat of the mother, the voice of the mother, the movement of the mother, the singing of the mother, the EM field of the mother , all those things and more and their will be no difference.....no deficit of direct immersion in information that every human baby has and since before we were humans?

(September 15, 2016 at 5:48 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: This whole idea that kids need their biological parents, or just two guardians, or any specific guardians especially linked to them is simply an artifact of evolution, it's not necessarily the best way to bring up an intelligent human being in tomorrow's world.

Just because your imagination fails to conceptualize a society where children are taken care of in a much more diverse environment than a simple household doesn't mean it's necessarily bad.

Nice utopia but took a look a today's commercial reality. You would be a product of the literal Nanny State and products that don't preform correctly can simply be replaced.

(September 15, 2016 at 5:50 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 5:33 am)Alex K Wrote: An emotional bond, of course. And, if you're the biological mother/father, a genetic one.

I suppose the machine will simulate the heart beat of the mother, the voice of the mother, the movement of the mother, the singing of the mother, the EM field of the mother , all those things and more and their will be no difference.....no deficit of direct immersion in information that every human baby has and since before we were humans?

Indeed, I expect that, yes. Parents will regularly visit and speak to their developing fetuses, they will leave recordings of their voice and heartbeats or even send them remotely when they are travelling. There will be a phone number, (or rather, IPv6 ) you can call to talk to your fetus any time. There will probably still be some disadvantages, though I expect many objections to be soon seen as mere nostalgia, just as some today have emotional objections to giving birth in hospitals rather than a home environment despite the medical risks, and remember the initial huge objections against in vitro fertilization which today simply noone wastes any time thinking about any more - the benefits of safety and always optimal sustenance (after all, a machine can at all points in time ensure at least an optimal nourishment and oxygenation etc., the fetus will be shielded from stress hormones if the mother is under severe duress) will at some point be judged to outweigh the deficits. Last but not least, mothers will at all times be able to undergo any medical treatments that they might need without the fear that the child might be affected.

(September 15, 2016 at 5:53 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 5:48 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: This whole idea that kids need their biological parents, or just two guardians, or any specific guardians especially linked to them is simply an artifact of evolution, it's not necessarily the best way to bring up an intelligent human being in tomorrow's world.

Just because your imagination fails to conceptualize a society where children are taken care of in a much more diverse environment than a simple household doesn't mean it's necessarily bad.

Nice utopia but took a look a today's commercial reality. You would be a product of the literal Nanny State and products that don't preform correctly can simply be replaced.

You're jumping to conclusions. Today's world is nothing. It can be changed. Anything can be improved. Everything should be improved. Especially idiocy.

(September 15, 2016 at 5:29 am)Excited Penguin Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 5:26 am)Arkilogue Wrote: What bond is there when a machine is carrying the child?

Nor should there be any. Personally, I would've prefered growing up in a society where the family model was non-existent. Don't just stop at births, remove the "parents" altogether. And that's regardless of how happy I would've been otherwise.

The traditional family model works fairly well.

Parents have a high level of motivation to look after their own contribution to the gene pool, children are benefited psychologically by contact and bonding in general with the parents.  

I don't understand why there shouldn't be any bond with the parents like you're suggesting.

(September 15, 2016 at 5:59 am)paulpablo Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 5:29 am)Excited Penguin Wrote: Nor should there be any. Personally, I would've prefered growing up in a society where the family model was non-existent. Don't just stop at births, remove the "parents" altogether. And that's regardless of how happy I would've been otherwise.

The traditional family model works fairly well.

Parents have a high level of motivation to look after their own contribution to the gene pool, children are benefited psychologically by contact and bonding in general with the parents.  

I don't understand why there shouldn't be any bond with the parents like you're suggesting.

I've never felt any bond with my parents or other of my family after a certain age. Pretending otherwise has been a drag.

(September 15, 2016 at 5:57 am)Alex K Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 5:50 am)Arkilogue Wrote: I suppose the machine will simulate the heart beat of the mother, the voice of the mother, the movement of the mother, the singing of the mother, the EM field of the mother , all those things and more and their will be no difference.....no deficit of direct immersion in information that every human baby has and since before we were humans?

Indeed, I expect that, yes. Parents will regularly visit and speak to their developing fetuses, they will leave recordings of their voice and heartbeats or even send them remotely when they are travelling. There will be a phone number, (or rather, IPv6 ) you can call to talk to your fetus any time. There will probably still be some disadvantages, though I expect many objections to be soon seen as mere nostalgia, just as some today have emotional objections to giving birth in hospitals rather than a home environment despite the medical risks, and remember the initial huge objections against in vitro fertilization which today simply noone wastes any time thinking about any more  - the benefits of safety and always optimal sustenance (after all, a machine can at all points in time ensure at least an optimal nourishment and oxygenation etc., the fetus will be shielded from stress hormones if the mother is under severe duress) will at some point be judged to outweigh the deficits. Last but not least, mothers will at all times be able to undergo any medical treatments that they might need without the fear that the child might be affected.

All good points Alex, thanks.