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May 26, 2011 at 8:31 pm (This post was last modified: May 26, 2011 at 8:33 pm by Jaysyn.)
(May 26, 2011 at 7:30 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: I suppose you've never heard of a political wedding or a wedding to seal an agreement?
Sure I have. But that has fuck-all to do with this.
(May 26, 2011 at 7:30 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: It actually doesn't logically follow that if Muhammad married a child under 12, that he was a pedophile.
I know how you like to play devil's advocate Sae, but don't be an idiot. He could have had any woman he wanted within a 500 mile radius, yet he chose a little girl. I don't care if it was his best friend's kid or his goddamn sister, he was still a pedophile.
"How is it that a lame man does not annoy us while a lame mind does? Because a lame man recognizes that we are walking straight, while a lame mind says that it is we who are limping." - Pascal
Jaysyn Wrote:Sure I have. But that has fuck-all to do with this.
He married the daughter of a good friend. That sounds like it has everything to do with it to me.
Quote:I know how you like to play devil's advocate Sae, but don't be an idiot. He could have had any woman he wanted within a 500 mile radius, yet he chose a little girl.
He more likely chose to honor his friend. It's not like people of that day and age often married out of love or attraction. The bond is between the two families more so than the two people.
(May 26, 2011 at 8:36 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote:
Jaysyn Wrote:Sure I have. But that has fuck-all to do with this.
He married the daughter of a good friend. That sounds like it has everything to do with it to me.
Quote:I know how you like to play devil's advocate Sae, but don't be an idiot. He could have had any woman he wanted within a 500 mile radius, yet he chose a little girl.
He more likely chose to honor his friend. It's not like people of that day and age often married out of love or attraction. The bond is between the two families more so than the two people.
He had sex with a 10 year old girl according to the very link Rayaan so kindly provided me with.
Quote:She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine or ten, when the marriage was consummated in Medina.
Pedophile. Even the fucking dark age Europeans waited till puberty.
"How is it that a lame man does not annoy us while a lame mind does? Because a lame man recognizes that we are walking straight, while a lame mind says that it is we who are limping." - Pascal
May 26, 2011 at 9:34 pm (This post was last modified: May 26, 2011 at 9:39 pm by Minimalist.)
Quote:Is there any "actual" evidence for the existence of Ceasar, Socrates, and Plato?
Um, yes. In Caesar's case we have his own writings, the writings of other historians, the writings of his enemies plus inscriptions, decrees, coins, statues, and his very name became a synonym for "ruler."
Again, with Plato we have his own writings as well as the the mention of him by others in their writings. Socrates, alone, falls into the jesus-mohammad myth school in that all we know about him comes from the writings of Plato.
The difference between those three which you have trotted out ( yet again ) is that none of them are attempting to tell me to live my live worshiping their bullshit.
What did "mohammad" ever write?
Quote:Pedophile. Even the fucking dark age Europeans waited till puberty.
Indeed. There should always be some fuzz on the peach.
(May 26, 2011 at 7:40 pm)Skipper Wrote: If he did have sex with her at 9, 10, 11 etc Rayaan, would you then believe him to be a pedophile?
If he did have sex with her at that age, then I think it would be insufficient to make the judgement that he was a pedophile based on single, particular act, while ignoring the fact that his first wife, Khadija, was older than him. He remained with her for 25 years until her death without marrying anyone else.
Also, if the consummation story is true, this doesn't mean that this was considered to be a bad thing during those times. Different times can demand a different understanding of an idea such as the concept of what is or isn't "pedophilia", and whether it's a bad thing or not, especially in a modern society where sexual child abuse is something frequent and considered to be a serious crime. (See my response to Jaysyn's post as I elaborate on this).
(May 26, 2011 at 7:40 pm)Skipper Wrote: What if I was to marry your 9 year old sister/daughter/niece? Could I expect the same apologetic stance you take for Muhammad?
I would think that you're quite a strange guy, since this is a very uncommon thing where I live, at least. (And I'm only assuming as if I have a sister for the sake of your question; I'm the eldest, and I have 3 younger brothers, the smallest being twins). BUT, I have never seen what Muhammad's nine-year-old wife was like, nor what people used to think in the sixth century about marrying a nine-year-old, so I can't compare this to a current situation in my own life to someone that I do know.
(May 26, 2011 at 8:44 pm)Jaysyn Wrote: He had sex with a 10 year old girl according to the very link Rayaan so kindly provided me with.
That could be true, although I'm not sure about that since a lot of the reports about the event could be susceptible to errors. I don't know at what age the marriage was consummated or if that's even true. But, I never denied it.
Having said that, what I find the most important thing to understand is that none of Muhammad's friends or family members got angry at him for doing this (i.e. for marrying a 9-year-old), according to my knowledge, not even his freind Abu Bakr (who is Aisha's father). If it was really a bad thing, then I don't think he would want to stay friends with Muhammad anymore. So, it seems to me that such a thing was culturally acceptable. No one was saying that he did a bad thing or that he did a crime by marrying her or by having sex with her. Secondly, Muhammad had enemies during that time like the Christians, Jews, Romans, and Arabs as well, and even they didn't say that Muhammad was a pedophile (or something like that).
(May 26, 2011 at 9:34 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Um, yes. In Caesar's case we have his own writings, the writings of other historians, the writings of his enemies plus inscriptions, decrees, coins, statues, and his very name became a synonym for "ruler."
Again, with Plato we have his own writings as well as the the mention of him by others in their writings. Socrates, alone, falls into the jesus-mohammad myth school in that all we know about him comes from the writings of Plato.
The difference between those three which you have trotted out ( yet again ) is that none of them are attempting to tell me to live my live worshiping their bullshit.
What did "mohammad" ever write?
1. I agree with what you said about Caesar, Plato, and Socrates.
2. The same reasoning can be applied to Muhammad as well. There are mention of him by his friends, family members, caliphs/successors, and historians. Many references tracing back to single man.
3. If Muhammad didn't exist, then how did Islam start in the first place? Who did all the Muslims learn from?
4. I think it is more likely to be correct if a person says that Muhammad was not a "prophet" or "divinely inspired" than saying that he didn't exist.
5. You believe that Muhammad is a fictional character (IF you're being honest). But, I'll agree to disagree like I always do (though I can still argue about this if I want to).
Criticize those 3 western issues first before making an asinine statement about the prophet.
Ok jackass, all 3 of those things suck, but they don't change the fact that your "prophet" was a pedophile.
Now be quiet while the adults are talking.
(May 27, 2011 at 3:56 am)Rayaan Wrote:
(May 26, 2011 at 8:44 pm)Jaysyn Wrote: He had sex with a 10 year old girl according to the very link Rayaan so kindly provided me with.
Having said that, what I find the most important thing to understand is that none of Muhammad's friends or family members got angry at him for doing this (i.e. for marrying a 9-year-old), according to my knowledge, not even his freind Abu Bakr (who is Aisha's father). If it was really a bad thing, then I don't think he would want to stay friends with Muhammad anymore. So, it seems to me that such a thing was culturally acceptable. No one was saying that he did a bad thing or that he did a crime by marrying her or by having sex with her. Secondly, Muhammad had enemies during that time like the Christians, Jews, Romans, and Arabs as well, and even they didn't say that Muhammad was a pedophile (or something like that).
A none of that makes a whit of difference to the fact your "prophet" was attracted to & liked fucking little girls. Quit with the apologia.
"How is it that a lame man does not annoy us while a lame mind does? Because a lame man recognizes that we are walking straight, while a lame mind says that it is we who are limping." - Pascal
May 27, 2011 at 8:21 am (This post was last modified: May 27, 2011 at 8:42 am by Skipper.)
(May 27, 2011 at 3:56 am)Rayaan Wrote:
(May 26, 2011 at 7:40 pm)Skipper Wrote: If he did have sex with her at 9, 10, 11 etc Rayaan, would you then believe him to be a pedophile?
If he did have sex with her at that age, then I think it would be insufficient to make the judgement that he was a pedophile based on single, particular act, while ignoring the fact that his first wife, Khadija, was older than him. He remained with her for 25 years until her death without marrying anyone else.
Thats completely irrelevant...Up until now I have also only had sexual relationships with people my age or older, if I was suddenly to start fucking 9 year olds you would rightly label me a pedophile, but obviously we're talking about the prophet so you'll make excuses until you're blue in the face.
Also, I'd say when the "single, particular act" we are talking about is fucking a nine year old it's ok to start dishing out the pedophile label.
(May 26, 2011 at 7:40 pm)Skipper Wrote: What if I was to marry your 9 year old sister/daughter/niece? Could I expect the same apologetic stance you take for Muhammad?
Quote:I would think that you're quite a strange guy, since this is a very uncommon thing where I live, at least. (And I'm only assuming as if I have a sister for the sake of your question; I'm the eldest, and I have 3 younger brothers, the smallest being twins). BUT, I have never seen what Muhammad's nine-year-old wife was like, nor what people used to think in the sixth century about marrying a nine-year-old, so I can't compare this to a current situation in my own life to someone that I do know.
But surely it is also irrelevant if it happened hundreds of years ago, he was the prophet he lived his life supposedly according to the word of god. You and other religions tell us that Atheism can't provide a good moral code, yet the moral code your book provides is clearly subjective to the time and place (and therefore useless(or at the very least no different to my moral codes)) if pedophilia (or marrying and fucking nine year olds (as if there is a difference)) was ok then for him then why isn't it ok now for me? or you? Or anyone else?
If we say human morals come from humans (society) then they will change as we change and I'll agree that if he was fucking a nine year old back then, it could have been because it was seen as ok during the time and place he was living. If however we say morals truely do come from scripture (the word of god) then I don't see how fucking a nine year old in the desert a thousand years ago is any different to fucking a nine year old now in a western city. But it obviously is.
Criticize those 3 western issues first before making an asinine statement about the prophet.
None of those portray themselves as some sort of holy horseshit nor do they threaten eternal punishment if you fail to adhere to their editorial policy. See the difference?
I didn't think you would. Keep worshiping your child fucker. In that, you are very "catholic."
